SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to episode four of the agency podcast. Today we are joined by Lucas Hanvey, who's making serious moves in the creative agency space. Now, his agency, Hanbi Media, has become a go-to name for online stores looking to scale through creative content. And in this episode, Lucas shares his insights on how to scale an agency with a team of over 50 employees through considered company culture. He also reveals how he recently made headlines by selling a stake of his agency at a pretty sizable sum. Now, Lucas is another huge affluent academy success story, and he's recently become a senior leader in our new programme, Elite Agency, where he helps other agency owners scale beyond 100k a month. So get ready for another agency podcast episode where we continue our journey into the minds of the top 1% of agency owners. Enjoy. So you just released some equity in the business, didn't you?

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Yeah, yeah. Um just uh sold um a stake in Hammy Media. So yeah, five years uh of hard work and letting go of a piece of of the baby that that was built. But um yeah, strategically I think it was it was the right move.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

For sure, man. We haven't even had the chance to personally unpack that. I haven't had the chat with you, so it's nice to be able to talk about it now. So thought process, how did that come about in the first place? Like you've you've built this baby up to a multi-seven-figure brand, and now you're looking to you sold a bit of it. What did that look like?

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Yeah, so um obviously you've you've kind of beat uh Ollie, who's just one of the other uh elite leaders on the program. Um he was someone that I've worked closely with for a long time, uh, him and Joe Marston. They run an agency called Saw with Us. Um, we were always the partner agency to sort with us at Hammy Media, so they always ran uh the ads, the performance, the strategy, uh the media buying, and then we were always the creative solution to their clients. So we built up a great relationship over many years, um, a lot of synergy there, very similar to myself. Like I like working with people that I get on with outside of just you know a professional environment and had a lot of fun, kind of similar to our relationship in many ways. Um, and yeah, like we we basically if it happened very organically. So, first we identified a gap in the market. Uh, it was kind of during this TikTok revolution, UGC, um, and you know, there were there were different options whether we brought TikTok UGC and TikTok performance in-house across Hambian Saw, or whether we set up an entity that was a niche-specific TikTok first agency. We thought that would be the better option because at the time there really weren't any TikTok agencies, you know. We were one of the first, at least in the UK, to do that. So we started a TikTok agency, we it and it just clicked. We we scaled it within 12 months to I think like 18 employees, um, seven-figure run rates, and um you know, it it we we we secured a massive partnership with TikTok. We're one of the first agencies to partner directly with TikTok, with like that official partnership, and you know, that just went from strength to strength. And I think we just kind of sat back and thought, shit, you know, from my perspective, I always looked at people like you and Joe, people like uh Josh and Ollie, and I was always always kind of a little bit jealous of you know not having a co-founder. And you know, there's pros and cons of being a founder compared to a co-founder, but for me, I you know, it was a very lonely journey kind of growing a business on my own, and you know, I always saw the benefits of working with a co-founder who has different skills to yourself that are very complementary. Um, and you know, I saw that with them, saw that with you guys, and I never had that. And it was the first time at For You Advertising that I was able to be a co-founder, and you know, what we were able to do there in such a short space of time, I just thought, you know, if that was me on my own, I wouldn't have if that was any of us on our own, we wouldn't have been able to do that. So, you know, it's that that phrase of I'd rather have a piece, a slice of a watermelon than a whole grape. And I I love using this, and it's it's so true. And um, you know, we were doing so well from a from a TikTok perspective, and then uh we merged the services a little bit more across Hambi and Saw. So whenever we were signing clients on performance creative packages for Meta at Hammy Media, um, we would always work with Saw and they would be able to drive better results, vice versa, they would always try and drive us into their um you know client services, and we would be able to drive better results. And you know, the performance and the creative go hand in hand. You need you need to be doing both to a really high standard now uh to be able to kind of stand out. Um, and you know, it happened very organically and authentically. Ollie and I then moved in together, which probably was one of the best decisions I ever made.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

Big statement, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

But just because if I look at myself uh and how much I grew during that period, like I always lived with friends up until that point from university, and it was great, I loved it. You know, they were my home friends, but none of them kind of they were all in uh you know standard corporate jobs, which by the way, I'm not saying is a bad thing by any means, you know, it's it's it's not at all, but we were just very much on different pages, and although socially they are like my brothers, um there there wasn't we we were all on we were all kind of working to different time zones and and uh to different things. And when I moved in with Ollie and my friend Josh, who also runs an uh a company, um, you know, just being able to work closely with these people, us push one another, learn from one another, um, we really did become a product of of each other. And as a result, Ollie and I got a lot closer and um you know we opened up the idea of merging into into the same group. And at first it was like a scary thing because you know I didn't want to lose what I had built, I didn't want to become an employee, but I knew from us starting for you advertising together, it was almost the proof of concept. We have done it here, you know. I own a quarter of the business here, as there's four four of us were co-founders, and we all uh owned um 25% each. Um, but it didn't feel like there was one, there was a hierarchy in any way. I could do exactly what I wanted to do. Um, everyone would trust me to do what I wanted to do, and we would trust one another, and it was just a great synergy. So I knew even if I was to sell a portion of the business at Hammy Media, you know, I could still step into more of a traditional CEO position, still own a massive part of the business that I think we can grow way further than I could have done on my own, and you know, that's already shown. Um, it was nice, obviously. The payout's nice. Yeah, it's good to like finally get a bit of liquid back from all the work that we put in um over the years. Uh, you know, I I never paid myself much money over that time, and it was nice to finally get a reward for that and be able to invest that money into other ventures and things like that. But yeah, it's it's it's massively proven successful so far. I think we've grown uh in the last six months like 200%. Um and that was because of the merger and how and so have so from how we've helped one another.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

It's it's it's interesting, it's one of the things I've always observed about you, and I've I've said to you before, like, and I and I've seen you go from like from literally zero in the agency and then when you had your first sales, when you had not your first sales job, but you were you're in a sales, was it a marketing company, but you were in a sales-based role?

SPEAKER_01 7:51

Yeah, so film school then went to like a publishing company but was in the marketing department, Dennis Publishing.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

Um and then you've gone and you and you scaled Hamby, but one thing I've always observed is that you've you've never been afraid to just keep money in the business and reinvest everything you can, with so many people come into like entrepreneurship and starting an agency, and it's like straight away every penny that I and I'm I was one of those people initially, like the agency was like my piggy bank. Like, I think I bought an M4 and we had our first 15k month or something. And so, like, that was yeah, there's there's lessons there. But but I I I've always observed from you that you've you've always been really conservative with the way that you paid yourself, and then maybe that's to do with the fact that the agency you've grown with being a creative agency is very expensive and you've been aware of that. But I'm interested to know, like, did you did you have any like anyone teach you about business before? Where did you learn that acumen from? Because I think that's quite rare in this space, and I'd definitely say it was one of your unfair advantages in scaling so quickly.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

Yeah, for sure. Um, I think patience is like one of the biggest um things you can have in business. I think a lot of people make the mistake of taking too much money out too soon. They they get their first taste of success and um they they almost bat themselves into a corner because you know, capital that they could reinvest into the business to scale quicker, um they they they take out the business and spend it. So I kind of I don't remember ever being taught that. I I just it's something that I've always tried to remain humble and patient because you know, like like you say, it's I knew it would pay off uh down the line. And you know, don't get me wrong, I still, especially after a few years, I started to enjoy myself, but I lived within my means. And I think a lot of people, whether they're an entrepreneur, whether they are um even just in a in a in a kind of normal job, I I think the biggest mistake a lot of people make is starting to live outside of their means, and as a result, they are always chasing uh the money, which I think is is uh in terms of like mental clarity, one of the worst places you can be in to make strategic decisions.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

Yeah, it's it's you have to be focused on what most agencies are who are successful, which is getting great client results and making sure that your service is tipped off and that you're you're you're you're you're smashing it there. I mean, you you originally were an ad agency with yourself, right? And then kind of merged into creative over time, like so you kind of found or stumbled through the the the what is now your service, but with Hanbi being like one of the best creative agencies in the UK. So how did how did that happen? How where did you originally start and what what did that transition look like?

SPEAKER_01 10:31

Yeah, so I'm like a big believer of following your happiness. Um it's almost like that that idea of IckerGuy, you know, finding something that you are really passionate about, something that the market needs, um, and you know, for me, I tried ads, it it wasn't something I really loved or enjoyed. Um, I was a creative, my unfair advantage was that I came, I went to film school, I understand storytelling, you know, all of these elements of um creative that I could bring into digital, like everything I learnt from you through your course was all the you know, accompanying that with what I know through creative and storytelling, I was able to kind of marry together. Um, and I think that is just what I was passionate about and enjoy, and fundamentally, those that really love what they do are going to outperform those that don't. You know, when you hit that first stumbling block, that first hurdle, you're you're gonna fall. And the person that really loves that thing is is going to be resilient and fight through it. Yeah, and I think because I loved what I did through the creative and really listen to what I enjoyed most was why that worked well. And I think you know, another thing is just really tapping into your unfair advantages. I think like everyone in business has them, even if you have to create an unfair advantage. Like for me, I I I I I love cars, I like cars, but I wouldn't say I'm like madly obsessed, madly passionate about um you know cars, but I worked in automotive advertising. So almost my my like leverage going into the market after I did your first ever course for social media marketing school was um okay, the market is competitive, obviously nowhere near as competitive as it is today, but the market's competitive. What can I do to leverage uh in comparison to others? And if I go out go after the automotive market, I can say I've worked with all these huge automotive titles like Evo, Auto Express, I can say I I've I've been in that industry, I understand that industry, and and that was an unfair advantage for me. And the other one was obviously you know, creative and understanding creative. So I think people need to have a think about that, you know. It can be a small one, but what what are those unfair advantages that you can leverage today in your business?

SPEAKER_00 12:51

Yeah, 100%. Many people just go blindly for what I don't know, someone like what I'm doing, or someone else, or then someone might watch this video and just try and think, oh, I'm just gonna replicate a creative agency, but it's so true. It must have been really hard when you first started hiring a team and then coming off the tools yourself and then stopping from creating that. Was that hard, or were you quite done with it by then?

SPEAKER_01 13:10

Yeah, it's good it's a good question. It's it's a battle I have internally like all the time. Um, and I think naturally any founder, CEO will go through this where what you started doing, you know, you'll slowly move away from and be doing the stuff that that maybe you don't enjoy. But I I was very lucky that I also really enjoy leadership and management and operations and strategy. Um where where so so I I you know it was quite an organic transition, but it it was difficult, and I think there was there was a period where I definitely did a bit of hybriding across the two, and you know, it's just about like scratching that itch. Like for me, um I still occasionally get involved in certain aspects of the business that probably I shouldn't do, or I you know, isn't going to be optimal for for the business, but I think it's important to scratch those itches to stay motivated in like everything that you're doing consistently. Um, you know, it's like us starting this passion project together. For me, doing some of these other side things really kind of helps fuel my motivation in the agency because um it gives me that breathing space to come back with a fresh, fresh mind.

SPEAKER_00 14:26

Yeah, 100%. I couldn't agree more. You need that, you need that perspective to gain hindsight over the stuff that you've been working on before. Yeah, for sure. So you you obviously the merge has been great, and that's that's all exciting. There's a huge growth path ahead of that, but you still single-handedly managed to build Hambi Media to 100k per month plus agency. What would you say were the biggest challenges that you faced in in getting to 100k a month?

SPEAKER_01 14:51

Um to be honest, for us, it was we really struggled to get past that 35k mark. Um, we we kind of just kept hovering around there for I think over 12 months and we just couldn't break through. Um, and I think really, you know, the the biggest issue if I look in hindsight is is you know not being consistent with our services. I think being a creative focused service, we would say yes to anything and we would adapt our packages for anything. And as a result, the team that we had weren't optimised to do a service because everything would change all the time. You know, their SOPs would change, efficiency, there'd be such a lack of efficiencies, and you couldn't m really master a service because the service is consistently changing, and we almost had every client on a slightly different package. So, like I kind of made a decision to pick a lane and stick within that lane and really become experts in that, which is when we um transitioned into performance creative rather than doing organic, doing brand videos, doing all these different things, um, and really becoming a master at that one thing, and then you can start introducing some of these other services once you've really mastered that one service. Because what that meant was I could become great at that one thing, I could build the best possible operations around that service, so it's not only efficient and profitable, but we're getting the best possible results for our clients, and then you know you're constantly learning and optimising because you're doing the same thing multiple times for multiple different brands and industries. So I think that was a big thing. I also think another one is like not being at the mercy of the of the client. Like, I was in many ways just I just became a bitch to the clients that we worked with. Like, I remember clients would treat the team, certain clients that we had were fucking nightmares, and they were horrible to the team. We didn't put the team's personal happiness first. Um, you know, we we just cared about the money, and um, as a result, it you know, in in hindsight, we weren't we weren't producing the best possible work because the team weren't happy, the team weren't motivated. So when you put prioritize the team um ahead of the client and the money, you actually find that that you know you actually scale more and scale quicker because um if if there is a client that is toxic, which can literally spread like cancer across the business, as soon as you cut that out, not only does it show the team that you're putting them first, but also you know it it makes room for better brands that that are gonna that aren't gonna be as uh inefficient to work with.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

Yeah, that's interesting. It's it it's and it goes against what you believe to be true to get you to that point in the first place. This is this the same repeat conversation comes up every single time I speak to an agency that's that's that's broken through that seven-figure point. And it's that the key is repeatable processes. It's like to get yourself to a certain level, like in your case to get yourself to 30k, it's like you throw shit at the wall and you just try and make something work. You do some brand videos, you do some, you work with this client, that client, you're doing all bits and bobs and so on. You're you're doing the launch video for us, like you're just dabbling in everything, right? Yeah, and then it just becomes the point where you're like, okay, well, I I can't physically grow this team whilst everyone's mind. You're too compartmental, you can't compartmentalize everything, and so and so you have to create a repeatable process, you have to focus on one thing, and then you just and the key is identifying that one thing, and then stick to it. But I I love what you just said about the team and and really making sure that you're prioritizing the team because everyone talks about prioritising the client, everyone talks about the client's best thing and reducing churn and all of that, but actually, if you want to put a certain point of scale, team will make or break your company massively.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

That's the thing, it's not me, it is the team. Like, I know that's a cliche, but it's so true. Like, without the team that we've built, without finding those A players that you look after, um there there is no there is no company, you know.

SPEAKER_00 19:06

One thing I admire about you guys at Hambi is that you've always had such a great company culture. Like you've you've really it's certainly in this uh in this ecosystem that we have of agencies online. Like I feel like Hambi are like the benchmark of great company culture, and you've always nailed that. Um I I'd love to know from your perspective, like, was that intentional? Did you have that in your heart to begin with, or did you kind of just fall into like this this great culture?

SPEAKER_01 19:32

It was the sole reason I started a business. Um I I was very lucky. I grew up, I had a granddad who had a fairly successful graphic design company. Um, sadly, he died before I ever was able to start the business. But I remember growing up and seeing his company culture, like he had people in the business that were there for like 20 plus years. Um, really loyal people. You know, he he there were situations where he would pay people in his business were struggling personally and he would pay off their mortgage, you know. And he just created this culture of empathy, and it it just shone through, you know. Growing up, I it was just so apparent, and that was what inspired me to start a business, not because of the money, not because of any anything else. It was like I love this idea of almost building this culture, this team, this unit that come together to build something great. So that was yeah, 100% intentional. That's that was almost what I wanted to grow the business around, um, and make sure you know we we set strong culture pillars and values, make sure we're doing fun team incentives and activities. And I think to be honest, you know, there's there's a lot of companies that do that. I think one thing we did probably better was just we documented it.

SPEAKER_00 20:51

You did, and it's all over socials, and it's like I I I love it, man. I think and I think like if that was your mission to set out, I mean, and you're still we're all still really, aren't we? Just so at the beginning of our business journey. Like regardless of like you get, I always talk about like you you once you got a certain amount of money in the bank, you've all just got money, and it's just how it is. But like as far as business is concerned, like team scale, operational, like we're very small companies, broadly speaking. Like the whole agency industry is small, there's only a small pocket that are are really international. But right now, you have achieved that thing. Like, you have achieved an incredible company culture. And do you feel like that, or are you quite critical about the way you perceive the company?

SPEAKER_01 21:33

Like, yeah, yeah, no, I appreciate that. I think the thing with culture, and this uh I remember saying when we were at five, ten members of staff, um I don't get why big corporate companies have such shit culture, but I I understand it more now because I mean we're you know we're we're nowhere near that level, but how many team members are you? I've got about 26 at home. And about the same at few advertisings, so about 50 across across the two, and I think about 40 at Saw. So in the whole group, so right, just over a hundred. But you know, culture is something that you've almost got ha have to keep a very, very close eye on and and finger on the pulse with like we have um we have a culture leader now within the business. Um it's something that we are constantly analysing because all it takes is one person to have a single head who's just a four-well, they it's it they uh uh alongside some other responsibilities, but yeah, they they are responsible for driving the culture, incentives, personal happiness, things like that. What does that look like? Um so we do like we do client satisfaction surveys, um, they speak to people individually to look at okay, what would you love to see in the culture? We give them budgets to be able to organise team socials and like quirky differ different things that we could do within the team. We also have like roadmaps for like company benefits, so we've just rolled out like a weekly kudos um bonus scheme, which is like where team members give kind of these vouchers to what you get a set amount of vouchers every week, you can give them to one another, and it's all done through a Slack channel for for good work, alignment with culture pillars and things like that. We've just rolled out private health, so they're basically on in charge of like ensuring that we are consistently on our game when it comes to culture. But we have had a few occasions where we've had to reset the culture. I remember probably just over a year ago, around January last year, the culture got really toxic again. Um there were certain people in the business that that did that, and we we we we had to have a pretty much what does that look like? How in what way toxic it's very easy for one person to almost set the standard for the what the the standard we expect to be held by everyone? Um all it takes is one person to start kind of backdoor comments about other people, and then that breeds like cancer, and other people start doing that, and we really notice this culture building of you know just not honesty or or uh authenticity within the team, and we we had to we had to tackle that head on, um, discuss it with the whole team. We at we had to get rid of a few people, um a few people left as a result, which which is the right thing to do uh to happen, and we basically had to have a full-on reset, and we we changed our whole hiring process that it is fully aligned into questions that focus on like our culture pillars, like skill set is really important, but the questions around those culture pillars and values are really important. And an example would just be so extreme ownership is is one of our um pillars, and that's basically you know, you take full ownership and accountability of everything you do. Um, you do you do one thing like you do everything. Um, if something goes wrong, a failure, lean into it, own it, um, and take it as a learning, as a positive, but don't blame external factors basically. Um, so we'll ask a question explaining that culture pillar and say, um, can you give a time where you've demonstrated extreme ownership in one of your previous roles? Um, so that's kind of you know the approach we take with with at least first interviews um from a cultural perspective, which I think is really important to find the right people and know the type of people you want in your business because it's very easy to upskill someone uh when it comes to skill set, but it's very hard to change someone's mindset.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

Almost impossible, I've found. A lot of people talk about A players and they talk about like and and and mostly when people talk about A players, they talk about people being good at what they do. Have you found yourself in a position where you've turned away A players because they don't meet your culture expectations?

SPEAKER_01 26:01

Yeah, I mean it's it's a weird one. I I would view an A player more as someone who is very good at what they do, but they go above and beyond, and they are hardworking and dedicated and passionate. Like I think I've met people that are just so talented from a skill set perspective, but I've not seen them as an A player because they almost are they're of the mindset of if you're in a corporate environment, you can kind of do get away with doing the bare minimum to a decent level, but you know, you're you're not really pushing yourself, you're not putting yourself in uncomfortable situations. For me, an A-player is someone who might not be in the top 1% of what they do, but they are dedicated, they're passionate, they are holding other people accountable to the same level of standard that that they hold themselves at. They are always craving more and craving to be better and grow and develop, um, and you know, not being comfortable in their day-to-day.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

I think it's so nice when you have someone when you just hire people. I think it's important. I think I mean I I would stand corrected if if you believed otherwise, but I believe at least it's impossible to have an entire team of A players at least at for a certain level. Um, and and I think that if anyone has got a team right now and they're thinking to themselves, I wonder if I've got an A player or not, you the likelihood is you don't. You know when you do. You know. And they'd people, those are the people that you can message in the evening and they're absolute they will just they're just on it. They're the ones that are proactively coming to you with problems before they arise. And I think it's such a it's such an important thing to it's such an important thing to have. It's it's vital for your business to have A players. And as we grow and as things get more complex, we have to have people that are proactively thinking about the shit that we're not going to be thinking about. And I think most people in employment will do what they are told to do and what they're told to do only. And so when we're trying to look for those individuals, do you have a process that you use in order to try and identify those kind of people? How do you uh attract those kind of people into the business? Because it's an attraction thing, right? It's not you can't you can seek and poach those people, but without speaking to them, you don't really know what their attitude is like.

SPEAKER_01 28:25

Yeah, it's a good question, and there's definitely no exact formula. Like, I've had times where I'm like, I'm so excited about this person, and they've not turned out to be who I thought they're gonna be. Yeah, um, I think to your first point, like if you're if you find an A player, you cherish and look after them and do everything. Because for me, when I found my first A player, that was like the unlock for growth. You're never gonna do that on your own, and when you find that first person, that is when you really start building that momentum. You realise what a team is meant to be, then you know it's it's really exciting. Yeah, but then to what was the question again?

SPEAKER_00 29:01

That it's how are you who you how are you attracting those people?

SPEAKER_01 29:04

So it again, it's like people I think people position like recruit hiring and recruiting in the wrong way. I think it needs to be treated in the same vein as um like finding clients. But we need to, we're selling ourselves to to individuals that want to work at our company through through our social channels. You know, we need we need to sell that like we would with a with a client. So I think a big one for us is really expressing that culture through our socials, you know, showing the great work that the team do internally, showing uh spotlighting individuals within the company, um, the the the cultural incentives we're doing, you know, the great work we're doing uh for for brands, because a lot of the time A players want to be around other A players, and if they if they see that you're kind of projecting that through other people within the company, it's likely that they're gonna they're gonna see that and want to want to be a part of that. Um I think the other the other things is like we always do tasks, um depending obviously depending on what the role is, and we're always looking for we kind of have a scoring system in place for um you know different for each question uh as from one to four, uh and we score score things from one to four. And from from my perspective, like one thing that we we really like to look out for is like people that just think slightly differently. Like it that's why volume is important because if you if you put ten, if you put five, ten people through a task stage, there's likely going to be at least one of those that like thinks completely different to the rest. It's likely 60-70% of those are going to have a very, very similar setup um in in what their responses are, in what their task is. So if you can create a task in a way that that opens up opportunities to identify that, I think um you know you're you're on to a winner. But then the other thing is just lead by uh those culture questions. I think that is so so important. Questions around mindset. Um, another thing I look at, there's a great article called How Losers Exist, Don't Hire Them. Um, and it's you know it's true, it's it's um it's I think if you can identify those that go above and beyond in their day-to-day life, not just professionally, they're likely going to do it professionally as well. So, what hobbies interest do you do outside of work? You know, if if you can really see that someone does something quite cool and interesting, they they they're passionate about things other than what they do professionally, yeah. I think that is also a great unlock. And I know we've had arguments about this before, or like, you know, in terms of what the best approach is, I don't think there's a right or wrong, but I also really like people that have um side hustles.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

Yeah, interesting.

SPEAKER_01 32:02

And I I think that, you know, I it it probably is likely, like you say, that that person's gonna be at the company for a couple of years before they maybe jump ship and do their own thing, but I think it it shows a lot of potential and someone that is um proactive in in their approach and hardworking.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

I think I changed my mind about that, you know, like I don't actively promote team members to have side hustles because I want people naturally to be given as much time as they can into what we're doing. But when I look at all of the best players that I have in our team, almost all of them come from a background of either wanting to start an agency in the past or have wanting to or have started an agency or have started another business. Uh we hire one of our best lead pools for hiring, and at least in junior level roles, now as we're we're a lot more established, we're we're hiring people with a lot of experience, but at least in our junior level roles, we hire a lot of people from like our academy training programme, and people intend to start an agency themselves, and they just have been absolutely incredible team members. Now, these are naturally people that are at the beginning of their journey, and so it's it's our more junior roles, but those people there are many of those people that today have like, for example, our operations manager came from the academy, and he's gr he has grown into this role and he's got an incredible amount of experience, better than than most operations manager that we would hire from. I mean, but better than all, I wouldn't replace him if if if if um I'd be very sad if he left and would be uh would be in a spot of bother. Um and and he came from this mindset of wanting to start his own business himself. And so I think my mentality towards that has changed. I think at the time that I probably um challenged that um was at a time that I was probably more insecure that team members may leave.

SPEAKER_02 33:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

Um but yeah, do you actively promote people or or allow people to to let's say they wanted to start a business on the side? Um I think my mindset around that is still relatively firm. We would never stop someone on doing it, but I wouldn't actively encourage it.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

Yeah, it depend it depends what it is, right? Like there can't be a conflict of interest there. Yeah. Um I mean, we've we've just had someone leave to start their own business, which was a side hustle. Fine. But I I fundamentally believe that if someone is wants to start a business, they're gonna do it at some point, regardless of whether you you know stop them or not. You just have to create a better opportunity for it. Yeah, exactly. And I also think that people that have had side hustles in the past, because almost any free time they have is going into this thing that really can help and impact us. Like, let's use do you remember Chris used to work for us, and again, he he left to start his own agency. He was like a big kind of TikTok micro influence on the side, ran his own TikTok page at scale, got loads of brand deals, and the insights that we were getting from him doing this in all of his free time, we he brought into the business that optimized what we did. We got way more insight into this because he was pra he was like testing these A B testing these things through his brand, and then we were able to, you know, then run those those learnings internally for our clients. So I do think in in many ways it can help. Like, in my eyes, I'd rather someone doing that than going out getting fucked up all the time and um Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

I mean, absolutely, yeah. I think that I think that the the ultimate is if someone was compulsively obsessed with developing something in their personal life, maybe they were they're an they're an athl they're an athlete or their ass. Yeah, that's exactly that it's it's what it what you're really just looking at is that sheer utter determination to be great at something, isn't it? And so and that's I think what most people who start a business really want. Yeah, we want money, I think, and I but I don't think that well I don't it's not that I don't think, I just know that money the money motivation alone can't get you to the place you need to get to because there's too much sacrifice you have to take to get to the position that we're in. We were just before off camera right now. I just looked at you and I said, when did we get so busy, man? Yeah. When did life get so busy? Because I can remember at every stage of of of our growth and and and and every stage of of me knowing you, like it just feels like every single time I see you, life is a little bit busier. What happened to the days where we were filming you fucking with cereal boxes in a bar? Exactly, exactly. And it's it it feels and maybe we can maybe we felt the same back then, but I I I I feel like life it gets busy and busy and you make more and more sacrifice. But you've just got a bit of money in the bank, which is nice and that makes it easier, but like that loses meaning very, very quickly. And so I think you have to be obsessed with growth and just being really great at something, and whether that's impact or whether that's just delivering good service, whether that's creating the best creative out there, if you don't have that, then you're not going to be able to build a successful business. It's not about the amount of emails you're sending a day or the amount of cold calls, it's like a that daily obsession with just like being the best.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

What um out of interest, because I completely agree, and I think when you get to a certain level you realise it's not just about the money, but I think up until that that stage of like comf when you're comfortable almost and you've got that that um barrier there, it's it is all about the money. So, like what do you think what do you think is the amount of money that someone needs liquid to stop worrying about that? Not that you know they could live off that amount of money and and continue forever, but it's a question I've always asked, like, what is that that baseline of okay, this amount of money liquid or or even within the business to at least have that feeling of feeling a little bit more comfortable where it's not just about the money anymore.

SPEAKER_00 38:01

I think that it's different for everyone, but for me it was a million in the bank. When I did that, I was like, okay, now I don't like now I'm cool and I can screw up. I think I think but more so it was less because I I lost personal money motivation when I knew how um and people shun me for saying this, but I when I've realized how easy it was to make money, and and and by that I mean you just have to make sa I I I deem sacrifices very easy now. In the light of the last 30 days, I have worked 15 hour days every single day and sacrificed every single personal amount of my life to the point of my girlfriend's looking at me like Jordan, like you you need to sort this shit out. Like this is gonna this is not good. I wouldn't be spoken in a week apart from anything, apart from what you're working on, and I'm just like working, sleeping, eating, and so on. So I know now that sacrifice comes easy when you've done it over a period of time, and when you do that, it is relatively easy to make money. And so I know I can continue making more. I think I learned that when I hit my first hundredk month, or maybe even a little bit less than that. And so then it stopped being about okay, what can I do to earn more money, more money, more money. Um, but personally, uh it was when when I hit a million in the bank, I had realization that like I could screw everything up, like multiple times over. Like I could have loads of team members leave, I could have like customers for whatever reason like complain about something god-awful that happened that I had no control over because the team members messed up. All these things are impossible situations. But I those situations could happen and I would still be absolutely fine. I can sustain the the business's expenses for over a year, you know, and so um I think that is when you really get the true freedom to make proper creative decisions in the business, and that's when you really start to make the decisions that make you grow. Uh, because beforehand, we are we're quite adolescent in the way that in our understanding of like how like how business works and how like how we make money, in the sense that we only before we have complete freedom of our own choices, we only have the capacity, at least from my experience, to model other people. We're like, okay, I want to hit 10k a month, let me see what other people did to hit 10k, oh that worked. I hit 100k a month, let me do what other people did to hit 100k, and then they do that, and it kind of works. And yes, you have to introduce your own personal thought along the way, but you are just taking snippets of information from all over the place. And I think then there comes a certain point in business where you no longer need to do that because it's not like right, what's 500k a month, what's a million a month. Some people it is, but like I think most people it's like you get to a point where you then just start to be able to have the freedom of expression enough to make choices that you weren't previously confident enough to make because you were a slave to finances. So true.

SPEAKER_01 40:49

Yeah, I I would agree. I think that's um that gives you that element of you know, risk that that you can you can try things, you can have fun with it. I think like people are so terrified by failure, but like, how many failures have I have you had, have I had loads, fuck loads. Like I've I've started adventures in the past, I've you know tried things in the agency that just have not worked, but like people view a failure in a really negative way, but we've promoted this culture at our businesses of doubling your rate of failure because it is the best possible way to learn, and it's it's the same thing like um Jeff Bezos says this uh all the time like how many failures have Amazon had? They they're launching new things all the time, and all he needs is one in ten of those to hit that is going to pay for all of those failures tenfold, and then also it's like if you fail, really kind of treat it like an experiment. So you have a hypothesis, you measure it with certain variables, and if it doesn't work, great, we've learned something from that. The insight we've taken from that, you know, if the this venture doesn't work that that we're we're going into, that's fine because we would have learned so much about a different industry and uh you know lots lots of other ways of working that we can then apply that to the next thing.

SPEAKER_00 42:14

Of course, every single time. The the catalyst or the key to that is actually being having enough initiative to track the shit that's going on. Yeah. So it's like you can't go into something blind and not be able to then be able to, you need to document, you need to analyse, you need to look at every single ounce of data and every number that you can, and then you need to have the critical thinking ability to analyse that and be like, okay, where did I screw up here? And find out where that leverage point is. And and I think that's where a lot of people feel uh like fall short. But it's like these lessons come in every single in so many different industries. I mean, look at trading, for example. Like trading, you you're not trying to win on every bet that you make, right? You're you're you're trying to win a small percentage, and the small percentage compensates for all the losses that you've made elsewhere. Whereas the only reason people struggle with that in business is because emotion is involved. And so, like, you have to realise through repetition of failure that your emotions are completely irrelevant. Your business doesn't care about the emotion. It's about the way that you react and learn from those things and adapt to the next thing. Like, I welcome failure so often, and and things don't go to plan all the time, but more often than you think.

SPEAKER_01 43:19

Like it's also that people just are too scared about what other people think. Like they just no one actually cares. Like, you know, I love I saw I heard this phrase once. It was like, no one no one cares about that spot in your face because they're too worried about their own. And it's it's so true, it's like you think that if you start something and you put it out there and it doesn't work, that anyone is really going to be giving a shit. Like no one actually cares about you and what you're doing. No. And I think two people are too obsessed with with what other people are gonna think.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

Yeah, 100%. 100%. People care to make one comment and then they forget about it the next day. Like it's and and that and that's such a I mean, it's such a Really infantile way of seeing things, isn't it? Really? If your own growth and your own success is limited by the thoughts of other people, that's really public enemy number one. And that's the thing that you need to be. That's probably one of the biggest things that you have to deal with from zero to ten. But getting from ten to a hundred is about critical thinking. It's about it's about being able to fail, but it's also about being able to fail at the same thing a number of times. Because it's like you from zero to ten, we we do a bit of cold coin, do a bit of emails, send a bit of DMs, do maybe maybe on some ads, maybe do some co uh some some cli uh uh content, and then we're like, okay, we've managed to get ourselves here and we're working with a number of different niches, and we've kind of like this didn't work, this didn't work, this didn't work. But then you have to take all of those lessons, figure out what did actually work. Okay, now I'm just gonna work with law firms offering this Google ad service that's gone well four times over. Let me just focus on that one thing because I've got proof of concept, and then you keep failing at that one thing, at that one thing, at that one thing, at that one thing, with and have the strength not to then pivot into something else.

SPEAKER_01 45:00

Yeah. So you get really fucking good at it. Yeah. I think how many people do we know, and I won't name any names, but they are just jumping almost monthly from business to business to business, and like that's that is the problem as well. It's like you say you've got to know when to kind of stop and change, but I think a lot of people make the mistake of doing that too quickly. Yeah. Um, and you know, there are like a great example is ha we had one of our worst months in the last four years, January 2023. We just like lost loads of revenue, uh, churned loads of clients at Christmas, team was in a bad place, um, and I was just not very motivated by the business at that point because Few Advertising was over here doing really well, and I really struggled to like balance the two. And I almost just took my finger off the pulse with Hammy Media and went all into Few Advertising, which you know, in hindsight was was a big mistake, but it was great in many ways because it was almost like that my back, you know. I feel like thoroughbred entrepreneurs perform their best when their back's against the wall. Um hundreds. And like I my back was against the wall. I remember I hadn't been on a family holiday in five, six years, and we my family, we all just agreed, let's let's all go away together to Mexico for a couple of weeks. And I you know, we hadn't been away for years, so it was something we were all looking forward to, you know, don't get to see each other that often. And um, it was just when this was happening, I was like, well, I can't not go, but I was just in Mexico, and literally I'd wake because of because of the time difference, I'd wake up at like 4 a.m. every day, work till like 2, 3 pm um Mexico time, literally just like in this cafe, um, and just just dialed in going for it, and then fast forward a year that we I think we did about in January, we must have done about 20k. We were we weren't profitable. It was the first month ever in our business that we weren't profitable, yeah. Um, and we were losing money, so it was like shit had to change, and then fast forward to January this year or now, you know, we're we're we're on track to get to 200k within the next few months. So it's like it's it it just shows there are ups, there are downs. You you shouldn't just give up when you find those hurdles because like business is a constant roller coaster, that's why you can't get too comfortable when things are going really well, and you know, you can't get too down when things are going badly.

SPEAKER_00 47:33

Yeah, 100%. Even just that that the concept there of you that was your first month of no profit. Like, people don't realise how fortunate we are in business to be able to say, that was my one month of no profit. I know, I know because this is a this is an industry that allows you to have the privilege to be. There are industries, there are entrepreneurs that are that that that don't I don't have our mindset at all, that have been conditioned and just understand that they're not going to make any money for like five years, and that's what they go into, and then they make big bucks off the back end of it, and sometimes they don't. There's massive amounts of sacrifice, but like we're in an industry that allows us to be able to make profit, and and we've been in the exact same position as that. We had a huge, we lost over 50% of clients. Uh I don't it wasn't 2023, it was 2022. Um, and we made a bunch of mistakes of just putting our eggs in one basket, and and we had way too high retainers, and it just all imploded at once, which was a pain in the ass. Uh but we did the same thing, just bounce back, and you take a bunch of new lessons, and then the business gets stronger than ever. Look, um you've you've built to where you are now, you've had this merger, it's it's it's it's it's just incredible to watch you grow, and I can't wait to keep being a part of it. It's just like genuinely, like as a friend, it's just the this is the coolest thing to observe. And that's why I I reached out to you recently and asked you to get involved in some mentorship and the in on the side of what we're doing in the education company at the moment to help existing agency owners scale to the level that you're at and beyond and just help those existing people. And so I'm interested to know personally, because I haven't asked you this, why you said yes to that and what interests you about mentoring other people.

SPEAKER_01 49:04

Yeah, well, yeah, firstly, like, you know, I'm so grateful for you because you're the reason I quit my job and um actually started an agency in the first place. So, you know, if it wasn't for you, it wouldn't would never have happened. So um firstly, you know, I I feel like it's it's a shame we don't we don't uh work very closely together um just due to how busy we are. So I'm such a believer in anything that you do and want to be a part of that, but really the main main thing from my perspective is like I've gone through the journey, I've gone through your courses, I've I've been very lucky to be able to to come out uh the other side, and well, you know, there's never the other side, but come out successfully for uh you know out of the back of that, and um I'm really passionate about helping other people, it's something I've always really enjoyed to do um doing, and something that I've wanted to, I've been very eager to get more involved in. So, like it just came at the right time. Um, it it was very authentic in the sense that I've come through one of your programs and I can, you know, it's it's it's quite you know, it's quite a nice story that we I can now help other people do the same. Um so for me it's just like I I have a real passion to help others that that were in a place that I was in um and you know be a part of what what will be fundamentally like the best agency program in the world, you know. So of course, man.

SPEAKER_00 50:34

Fantastic. I mean, well, you've got a group call in in literally in a in in a short amount of time, so we'll wrap this bad boy up. It's been a pleasure catching up as always. That'd be mad.