SPEAKER_00 0:00

You are landing into someone's inbox uninvited, so you better come with something good. The first two emails are the most important. It needs to be a one-on-one conversation and it needs to be relevant.

SPEAKER_03 0:09

You've scaled that to an international B2B Outbound agency that's generated 41 million in client returns through Outbound.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

We know kind of everything there is to know about it.

SPEAKER_03 0:18

What do you think you guys understood about B2B Outbound that allowed you to grow the agency so quickly?

SPEAKER_00 0:25

Deliverability is the first thing we need to get right, and then the follow-ups do the work. We understand from our sales background, people buy from people. We put our face to everything. Before people come to a conversation with us, I think they feel like they already know us.

SPEAKER_03 0:40

One thing that you wish you'd learnt earlier?

SPEAKER_00 0:41

The founders can actually hold the business back. Me and Mitch have wanted to keep hold of things for so long. A lot of agency owners who can relate to that, you know, it's hard to let go. It's the only way you can grow.

SPEAKER_03 0:53

What is one habit that's helped you the most as a founder?

SPEAKER_00 0:57

You can easily create a one million pound business quickly. Learn 100%. Get good at that first. You can go on and truly do anything, like anything really is possible, but it all starts with your mind 100%.

SPEAKER_03 1:14

Ash, welcome to Agency Giants.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_03 1:18

So you started your career similar to me, or before your agency in as a in the cold calling center. Which is cool. But unsimilar, you then launched and sold a jewelry brand. You then launched Flood and you've scaled that to an international B2B outbound agency that's generated 41 million in client returns through Outbound, which is awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Crazy.

SPEAKER_03 1:40

What do you think you guys understood about B2B Outbound that allowed you to grow the agency so quickly?

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Oh good question. Um I think it's my working career. So I've worked in small, medium, and large businesses myself, doing the outbound myself manually, um, as has my co-founder as well. So we know kind of everything there is to know about it. Um so I think that is a massive advantage. And yeah, I would say that is the biggest thing, but also when we did have a couple of e-com brands, we were really good at the outbound side of things, um, which helped us uh grow that within a year and sell it so fast.

SPEAKER_03 2:30

Interesting. So you have D2C brands that you work with as well that you do outbound for?

SPEAKER_00 2:35

Um so we work with B2C, but they have to be selling to B2B businesses. Yeah. So but we understand how B2C works because we used to be B2C, we know what we would resonate to, but also B2B as well, because that's a world that we've lived in for over a decade now. That makes me sound really old. Um so yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:56

What was the bridge between starting brand and then deciding to start an agency? And basically, why did you decide to start an agency?

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Um, it was based on our experience essentially. So when we had done e-com brands, we didn't have any experience with e-com brands, and with that we made a lot of mistakes. We were, you know, we didn't understand how it worked because we'd never worked in those sort of businesses. We were just learning on job. Whereas with an agency model, it's everything that we'd always done within our career. Um, you know, working in different sales um environments was basically selling marketing services, so that's a big chunk of our background. So we knew how things worked operationally, but also, you know, what we were selling, and we just had seen everything there is within those sort of businesses. So our skill set when we did e-com was very much the marketing side of it and selling the product. So it was about combining our skill set of being salespeople and being good at marketing when we did have the e-com brands, bringing that together because in one of in our um in the jewelry brand that we had, our biggest sales came from our newsletter marketing. So email was massive for us in that, but also in our sales roles as well. You know, email was was good. So we just combined our skill set essentially. So we'd learnt from the things that the businesses that weren't that didn't come into fruition and and essentially failed. We learnt from that and was like, okay, what are we actually good at? Let's focus on that rather than oh, let's have a shiny fashion brand or a jewelry brand. You know, when you're young, you do want to create those sort of brands because it's cool, right? Um, but as you get maybe a little bit more experienced, you're like, okay, where do we actually, what are we actually good at? Let's focus there. So that's how it kind of happened, really.

SPEAKER_03 4:50

Nice. And then you decide to start the agency. Did your first clients they come from outbound yourself?

SPEAKER_00 4:55

Yes, absolutely. So we started our agency um and it was paper performance. We knew that that's how we could get clients quick. Um, so that's essentially what we did. Um, we did some great work for them, and then we would get case studies from them, and we were able to build off that from a brand perspective. Um, yeah, there was one really interesting kind of moment in our first year. We signed up a pretty nice retainer, it was 10 grand a month, and yeah, so that was like the moment that the penny dropped, and it was like this could actually be quite an interesting business model because it was very much freelance back then. Um yeah, so we signed up this client on a paper for per performance, and it ended up just working out really well for us because we were delivering that many leads at volume and they were perfect fits. They were closing these deals and we were getting a kickback off that. So it yeah, it that's when it started to become really interested. And me and my co-founder at the time, we said, let's really take this seriously, and yeah, just put everything into this brand. Because, yeah, essentially at the time, we probably didn't know that we wanted to create like a uh you know, we didn't know what the future like what we're doing today, we would never have thought we would have ended up here. There's no way. Um, but yeah, so nice.

SPEAKER_03 6:20

So you were reaching out to what kind of business? Does any B2B?

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Back then, yeah. Any any B2B business, mainly marketing agencies. Fine. Because we knew that, you know, marketing agencies they need performance and and you know they're willing to spend money. So we um we started there, um, but you know, it looks very different to now. We're a lot more picky with who we work with, um, and it's more about their brand proposition. We actually turn down more clients than we sign up now 100%. Whereas back then it definitely didn't look like that. You know, when you grow in, it's just getting any client through the door. But that's how you learn.

SPEAKER_03 6:56

Yeah, 100%. You have to learn the art of saying no. Yeah. It's like opportunity is so vi is so sparse when in the early stages and you get so used to just taking on anything, and then opportunity becomes abundant and you have to turn it all away.

SPEAKER_02 7:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:11

When it comes to the outbound specifically and the clients you're working with, you say paper performance. Do you track on revenue or is it like a paper lead model?

SPEAKER_00 7:21

Back then it was paper lead. We don't do that now, it's just retainers. We'll only work on retaining.

SPEAKER_03 7:26

Why did you transition out of that?

SPEAKER_00 7:28

Forecasting. Um, you can't forecast. Um and yeah, that was that was the biggest reason. Um, we brought in a COO around year two, two and a half. Um he came into the business and he he started as a finance director with us, so that's his background by trade. Um, so you know, for him it was like, how do we make this, you know, how can we forecast and know what's coming next and like yeah, be able to create an actual proper budget. So yeah, he was yeah, a big part of just changing that model, I suppose.

SPEAKER_03 8:04

And you started the business with Mitch, your your co-founder, was also your life partner.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 8:10

And you had your brand previously with with Mitch as well?

SPEAKER_00 8:14

Yes. Um, so it's interesting. So um my first tele sales role was where I met Mitch. So we were both just sales reps. Um, our jobs at the time was to make 120 cold calls every single day and get two proposals sent out. That was the job. Um, so yeah, that's where we met. I then convinced him to move to the big city, Manchester. So he did, and that's where we both went into um big corporate jobs. So I went and worked at American Express, Mitch worked at Man City. Um, and yeah, we had we had an apartment in Ancourts and it looked out at the city. And every night we'd come back from that job and yeah, just feel like we were just a number in a big cog. And so what we used to do, we'd come back, sit on the sofa, look out at the city, and we would literally brainstorm ideas of what we could do because we both knew that we wanted to start something. Um, that's when we first started creating our menswear brand, which was the first ever brand that we started. Uh, we spent about a year and a half on that, building it, and it never launched. So that was emotional at the time, you know. Your first ever brand, you get so emotionally attached to it. Um, yeah, we spent a year and a half. We had a factory flying us out to Turkey. They thought we were going to be, you know, the next represent, and so did we. We absolutely believed that as well. Um, but we didn't make it easy for ourselves. It wasn't t-shirt printed t-shirts. It was, you know, we were trying to mix formal word with sports word details. It weren't something that was really seen. So, what that just meant for us is we were spending a ton on, we had a GOM tech, we had a designer, we had at the time we also bought um our website, which obviously we learned to build in time, uh, but all those spends that we had in that first brand, it was just cost, cost, cost, cost, cost. Um, and yeah, we had with fashion you have to work in advance. We had two collections already done. And we had our autumn, winter, and our spring-summer collections done. However, the first one, which was the one we were going to launch with, I just weren't happy with it. We were getting sample back, sample back, and it just wasn't to the standard I needed it to be. And we got to the point where it was like, right, we need to make a call. Are we making, are we buying this bulk order for our first job? What are we doing? So me and Mitch had a conversation on that, which was in his mum's spur room at the time. We were working on this desk together. And yeah, we that was the first proper business decision I think we ever made. Um, we had a gut feeling, and we'd already spent thousands on you know, working with Gauntet every week, a designer every week. This is all whilst working in our corporate jobs. So um we worked in when I was working at American Express, we worked in a WeWork office. So on my lunch, I would be in a coal booth for every second, just building on that brand in the background, and then we'd come home and work on it, and I'd get the designers to come into the WeWork office after I'd finished my hours and everyone had gone home, and I'd be bringing them into our office, and they I think they thought that was our office, and it was just it was just pure, um, just pure hustle back then. Um, but yeah, it was a it was a there was a lot of lessons from that brand. Um, we were spending money and it didn't even see the light of day. Um, so I think the the main lesson with that was okay, what we do next, we need to be all over the profit margin. So that's essentially what happened. The next kind of phase after that mensword brand was gone. Um we started doing some research into how we can build a brand but not have to fork out lots of money up front. That's where we found dropshipping. So we started understanding and learning dropshipping, we were doing lots of courses on it, how it works. Um, and we me and Mitch now look at that period and we call it Business University because we were both building loads of random brands. I mean, I had a kneecap brand. Uh it was a knee support, sorry, knee support brand. Um, Mitch had something to do with running. Um, I had a doggy wear brand, and we was just essentially the whole point of that period for us was we need to learn how to build a website from scratch ourselves so we don't have to fork out that money again. And we need to have a business model where we don't have to fork out money that we don't have. The money we spent in the past, we didn't, we were working our full-time jobs and basically saving every penny to you know work with those GOM techs and etc. So, yeah, dropshipping was very attractive to us. So, like I say, we were building a couple of brands, we're just understanding and learning the marketing fundamentals, learning everything on the ground ourselves. Um, and we said to each other, um, when when we find one idea that we think could be like a good trending idea that'll you know make us make us money, we'll jump on it. But for now, we'll just we'll use this time and just get good at marketing. And that's exactly what happened. Then we landed on an idea which was jewellery, and I don't know if you remember the tennis chains, there was a bit of a trend a couple of years ago. You know, Kardashians and footballers were all wearing these tennis chains and Cuban diamond chains. So we basically built a brand around that. Um, but it was diamond chains at an affordable price point so that you know anyone who's just going out on a night out with a friend and they want to look cool, um, they're able to buy something like that, and it still looks just as good as the real thing. So that was the brand that we had in jewelry. So we were building that for 12 months and then sold it for six figures. Um, I think what actually allowed us to do that so quickly was it was we started the brand, I think it was like three months before COVID hit. So we were we got uh furloughed and we was like, oh my god, this is our opportunity. Like, this is the only moment we will ever get to work on this brand full time, not just at night till 4am and stupid hours that we were doing at the time. Um, but we can work on it 9 a.m. whatever time you get up, 8 a.m. through till stupid o'clock at night. This is our opportunity, and we need to just throw everything at it. Um, and that's exactly what happened. Um, me and Mitch, I think we are very um we just want to get things done for quite fast. So we were just running at everything so so quickly. Um, and at the time, Love Island was quite big. And some of the contestants who'd just come off the shore started reaching out to us because they wanted to look, you know, the part, the diamond with the diamond chains, etc. So we um we essentially started working with influencers, but it was totally organic. They were coming to us, and that really started to snowball. Um, so we were basically doing deals where we would send them out a package full of different jewellery and they would wear them and create a UGC. Um, so that really helped us to scale it within such a short period. Um, and then all the updates happened with Facebook ads, and I think we became a little bit um, we were a little traumatized from the last experience with our margins, and we was like, I'm not sure if we're gonna be able to sit sustain this. So that's when we made the decision to we're gonna sell it and move on to something new, and that is where yeah, floored began. All of this, by the way, was we were working full-time jobs throughout that whole phase, um, including that last one where we sold it. Um, and it was only when we actually started flood that we went full-time into this because we had bills to pay, and we don't come from backgrounds where there's cash in cash in a pot. You know, you've got to pay your bills yourself. So um, yeah, that's when flood all began, really.

SPEAKER_03 17:03

Did it cause a relate a strain on the relationship you've been in business with your partner, or do you think you guys have like a unique way of working together that just makes sense?

SPEAKER_00 17:11

Both. Um, at the beginning, egos were involved. It was like, I'll do this, no, I'll do that, no, I'll do that. And we both just wanted to do everything. Um, but now it's very, very different. We understand, you know, our strengths, our weaknesses. Um, it's very different. I do think it is a unique case because we worked together in two jobs. So um we knew what it was like to work, we had that, that's how our relationship kind of began. Um, so that is definitely quite unique, and I think that we've only ever experienced that, so we don't know anything else, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 17:49

For sure.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:50

How was the roles distinct in the business? So do you focus on one side of the company and he focuses on the other?

SPEAKER_00 17:56

Yeah, so naturally at the beginning, we were both just doing everything. Um and then over time, so I initially was well, as we started getting a little bit more uh mature as a business and growing the team, um, maybe year two, year three, I was more uh focused on the service side of things and supporting our service team, make sure they've got everything they need to do their job to the best standard. Um, also on client side as well. Um, Mitch has always been on the uh new business side of things. Um and yeah, and in the background, I was always working on the marketing of the brand, um, but we didn't have like a department or anything like that for you know a couple of years. Now I've manoeuvred into that, and now you know we have a real org structure, and there's you know teams in every single department. Now I head up the marketing team, which is just something that naturally I've just picked up along the way. Um, brand was very much what I was doing in the e-com side of things, and we really was able to create a buzz with those brands. Um and same with Floyd, we've really been able to create a buzz, and that's yeah, essentially was me in the background, and then we started taking it more seriously. You know, we're growing out a sales team, they need leads, right? So you really do need to just yeah, start making sure your teams are looking correct. And yeah, that's just where I fit the best. So I now yeah, run the marketing side of our business and how we generate leads to our business. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 19:32

So, how did the service start? As in, what was the service offering initially, and has it evolved now into something else different to what it was, or is it very similar?

SPEAKER_00 19:41

Very similar. Um, we have we just basically went in on being experts at outbound email. So that is what we've been doing for years now, um, and we're we're very good at it. We understand um, yeah, that's that's our main service, but we have recently just launched calling as well. Um again, both of those are very much our background, so it's a bit of a full circle moment, I think, with the service and the value that we offer to clients. It's just it's just ingrained into our veins, I think, at this point. Um, so yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:17

I said to you off camera, like I'm I'm a huge advocate of outbound. Outbound is the way that we grow our agency. We used to send a thousand emails a day to direct to consumer brands and I'm still actually currently building a new outbound system at the moment. You know, the majority of people I speak to on this podcast have never done any outbound. It's the referrals, it's inbound and so on. And I actually think outbound has a bit of a stigma attached to it.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:39

Why do you think that is from your perspective?

SPEAKER_00 20:41

Because there is a lot of bad outbound. Um, I get flooded in my inbox and I'm like, archive. Um, but I do think people are coming more around to it. I think because of all of the changes that um the big providers recently did around deliverability, I think it is wiping out the bad agencies because they just don't stand a chance. You need to understand how things work to actually get in the inbox, never mind, actually generate leads. So I think people are warming more up around outbound, but yeah, I think it's well, naturally, you know, everyone wants to focus on inbound and referrals, and um, that's been a big part of our business, but outbound just we wouldn't, it wouldn't be possible our business without outbound for ourselves. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:32

So how do you think you're able to like separate yourself from that if if if a business is looking at outbound and thinking, you know, I just don't want to spam people's inbooks. How do you how do you position yourself differently to your clients to ensure that they don't feel that way?

SPEAKER_00 21:45

Yeah, I think there is a lot of agencies that go in with the the low cost lead generation. We do definitely sit at the higher end of that. Um and brand reputation for our clients is really important towards. Us and important to ourselves, and you know, bad campaign can ruin your reputation like that. So I think it's really important that you do partner with the right people because of that, if you care about your brand, which I'm sure the majority of businesses do, right? Um, so that is a key one for us. I do think um we are at a bit of a sweet spot as well, because you'll probably remember the golden era of Outbound, and it's definitely changed a lot since then. Our business is way more technical than what it was when we first began. Um, so yeah, so it's it's is yeah, it's interesting.

SPEAKER_03 22:39

Yeah, I remembered I was doing Outbound when we were just able to do a mail merge from a Google Sheet. So you'd have to sheet in the mail which uh we was doing the same.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

We um we were also using AI in our first year, which is crazy because AI wasn't really a thing back then. We was using it to personalize our first lines, and again, that's going back five years ago now. So it weren't popular then, obviously it's popular now, um, but AI definitely wasn't what it is now. Like, obviously, it's gone on a bit of a journey. Um and yeah, we're using AI in lots of areas of our business now. But yeah, we were definitely early adapters without really realizing it, I think. Um so yeah, I think it's important to use AI though in the right places. I think people will just try and use AI for everything, and you know that that's not really gonna build a unique business.

SPEAKER_03 23:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

Because anyone can do that, right?

SPEAKER_03 23:38

Do you do you use AI to write entire emails based on frameworks, or are you personalizing just individual parts of an email in that round?

SPEAKER_00 23:47

We we're doing both essentially. So we um we work w with AI. We think of AI as more like a thinking partner. Um so helps helping us to stress test ideas quicker, um, kill bad ideas faster. Um we yeah, utilise it with strategy, but we have uh an actual strategist who is working with that to ensure that you know the ideas are uh aligned in the best possible way, but also, you know, there's so many things that we've picked up over the years in terms of just writing styles, how many words and offers, and there's so many different factors now to what makes uh a really strong outbound campaign. I'd say there's four key components to a really good, successful outreach campaign via outbound email, which would be uh number one is deliverability. So it's it's it's you can't get away from deliverability anymore. You need to have we have a deliverability team, which most agencies wouldn't even think of doing, but we um we created a team just for this to monitor inboxes about two years ago now, maybe 2.5 years ago. Um, so we're definitely ahead of the curve with that. So, yeah, back to the components. Deliverability is the first thing we need to get right because if you don't, you don't land in the inbox. So, what is the point? Um, number two is getting your data and your ideal client profile right. Um, that is key as well to a strong campaign. Um, the third one is relevance. So, you know, whoever you're landing in that inbox, it needs to be a one-on-one conversation and it needs to be relevant. Um, and if you can get the timing right, even better. That's something that we're quite big on. And the fourth thing is offer. Now, everyone always gets scared about the word offer. It's like discount, it's not about discounting your your brand, your service, it's about what is the value that you are giving in that outreach because you are landing into someone's inbox uninvited. So you better come with something good. So they are the four biggest things that make a good outreach campaign.

SPEAKER_03 26:03

What do you think are the big mistakes people make around deliverability?

SPEAKER_00 26:08

Um that's a hard question because I don't know what people are doing internally. Unless I can see what they're doing, it'd be hard to know. But I think people don't take it seriously. Um I think they're just like, let's just not make sure if if our email's right, then you know, if it's looking relevant, then you know, we're gonna get in the inbox. But there's so many factors now.

SPEAKER_03 26:30

Maybe a better question is what what do you think are the keys to making sure you have a good or high deliverability rate with an outbound email?

SPEAKER_00 26:38

I mean, I can tell you some of the things we're doing internally, which we know works well after years of testing. We've spent a lot of time resource on this. I know a lot of agencies who basically diverted away from outbound email because they didn't want to, they knew they would need to spend time and money to understand what those changes were and how they could overcome it. We were full throttle with this. Um, as soon as we were getting a sniff of changes coming, we were just researching like hell. Um, so some things that we do and some simple steps that people can take is so when buying domains, you can create users, and I don't think people really think about this, but you could buy a domain and like float, I could have 40 team members under my main domain. Now, I don't think people really think about setting up like that. There is a real infrastructure to that. We set up maybe we'll for a new client, we might buy 10 domains, dummy domains, and from them we will create users in each of those domains. And what that basically means is the emails that we're sending, we're lowering the volume per email user going out. So that's a key thing. It's volume, be careful with volume. Another thing is the blueprint of what your messages are going out. If you've got the same message to a thousand people, you're gonna get pulled up as on spam filters. Um, so we have a technique internally which is called spin tax where you're spinning your words around and your sentences, and that's done at like scale. Um, we like I say we've got a deliverability team who's monitoring the inbox, bounce rates, etc. constantly all day, every day. And we have um fresh domains in the background ready to go. Um so there's a real operation and system now behind this, and I think there is a lot of agencies who don't really understand it still and don't really take it seriously. But you know, essentially all it is is the big providers don't want their users to get spammed, which is fur. And like I say, it we I think if anything, it's been a benefit for us because it's weeding out more of the poor outbound lead gen agencies and and the best ones will thrive in this in this era that we're in.

SPEAKER_03 29:02

Do you think there's a a specific rule to let's say like domain and and then individual email addresses or user within that? Do you think there's a specific ratio? I I I say that almost as a selfish question because I, as I said to you off camera, I'm currently rebuilding our outbound system and we've we've done a lot over the years. And we're we're doing a thousand new emails a day, but two thousand five hundred give or take, including follow-ups and so on. 20 domains is what we is what I bought, about five of them I'm gonna put in in warming just for backup. And then we've got 15 other domains, probably three users per domain. Now, it sounds to me like you do a lot more users on it on domains. Is is is that um do you think there's there's a right and a wrong way, or do you think there's multiple ways to do it and it's just digressing risk in different ways?

SPEAKER_00 29:47

Absolutely, there's different ways of doing it. Um we the more users you have, the less risk you are to be picked up because your volume is split. Um so I'd recommend the more users that you have, the less risky it is and less likely you're gonna get picked up.

SPEAKER_03 30:03

There's not a maximum amount of users per domain.

SPEAKER_00 30:06

Um we we max out at like 20.

SPEAKER_03 30:10

Okay. Oh, interesting. It's a lot more.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

Yeah, so it it just depends as well on your internal setup. Um, you know, so we have like our users for like our ourselves, we have each of our sales reps as a user, and that is the email outbound channel, and they're just generating leads and meetings for our team members. They absolutely love that channel.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 30:35

Um, it's not quite what I was doing back in the day, that's for sure. We've got an easier job with that.

SPEAKER_03 30:40

Oh, yeah. I always I always talk about sometimes when the when our sales team moan, I'm like, you don't realise how easy like when I used to cold call like 100-150 companies a day, I set my own calls and I close my own calls and I've got a I get a I get yeah, I get to earn the privilege to even be able to close. Now you sit to a full calendar every day and you're moaning because you've got two less calls today. Getting that in the CRM.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

Yeah, a hundred percent. I think it's important that people well from from like a sales rep perspective, you should always stay uh prospecting no matter what. Um I've seen some reps come into the business and they get they just get really um what's the word? Um complacent. Complacent, that's the word. Um really complacent and it's like I'm just gonna wait for leads to come my way. And but that that for me irritates me based on what I've had to do in my past. And you know, you shouldn't rely on anyone in order to generate your, you know, sales, it's it's very target focus. And if you're relying on other people and other, you know, other than yourself, like you should always keep, you know, keep doing that and keep good at it.

SPEAKER_03 31:54

We we I don't know if you know anything about or much about what I do, but I teach agency owners and help them start. And the number one thing I do uh with the people that we help start is I make sure they cold call and go door to door. Yes, just even even outside of the fact that it gets great results, it's the best time for your money, even to e especially in an AI world, door to door, cold calling, amazing.

SPEAKER_02 32:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:18

But it's the resilience, it's the no's, it's the it's that most people have not heard no. Like, and and so being told no multiple times a day on repetition until it becomes something you're like, you're almost laughing, you're it's nothing, no issue. I'm on that the foundation of that to then go and build a business, I don't think there's a better foundation.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

I could not agree more. So I really resonate with that. So my first sales job before the tele sales job was um basically like door-to-door selling, but in high streets. So I was the person trying to stop you. Excuse me, who does your gas and electric?

SPEAKER_01 32:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:54

Um, so I was, yeah, they called it event sales. It made it sound really sexy, it was not sexy. Um there is a day in particular that I remember, um, and I was studying Bolton Town Centre, if you've heard of it, up north, and um I was on the field, we called it, which was just a high street. I was there from 8 a.m., probably till 6 pm, and I would not leave until I hit my lead target. And that particular day it was snowing, torrential snow, minus degrees. I had my thermal leggings on, thermal jumper, and the only break that I took was to go into pound bakery and get a pasty and a hot drink to warm myself up. And the resilience that that role provided, that was the the best, because that was the first sales job I ever had. And oh my god, it just it was a it was it was an amazing step into sales because yeah, the resilience was crazy. I was up at 4am on the road by half four. Um, I'd be buffed whilst I'm getting ready. I was watching all these YouTube videos around motivation. Um, and yeah, I'd I'd get there, I'd get myself on the field, and you're putting yourself in an uncomfortable situation constantly, you're being told to F off numerous times a day. Um, the no's were just they were brutal no's as well, because they're to your face, and some people were quite savage. Um, and then yeah, the second role of me going into tele cells was coat calling 120 a day. So, yeah, those two roles really did shape who I am 100% and my resilience. So, yeah, I'm I've I absolutely rate that you're doing that as well with new agency founders. Like I always said, when I have a whenever I have children, I want to put them into like door-to-door sales or get yourself on the high street and try and sell face-to-face, get into a call center. I actually think it is it's a great foundation.

SPEAKER_03 35:02

I think so. Communication is the best skill that you can really earn. Bringing it back to email a little bit, because I I've got a few things that I'd like to unpack there. We mentioned offer. Do you see do you have a wide variety of campaigns with different clients where you know some people you're going direct in and it's like we're trying to optimize for a booked call or an appointment, for example, or do you prefer it to be a little bit more Trojan horse? And by that I mean you're having a conversation first, there's a little bit of like qualification, and then you're progressing? Like what generally is are you optimizing direct response?

SPEAKER_00 35:37

It yeah, well, our job is to book sales qualified meetings. So we don't just send leads, any response, there you go, Miss Clients, sort it out. We um we do everything from um yeah, so the campaign, we will then book that sales meeting and we will continue to nurture that prospect so that we get a high meeting stat rate. Um so yeah, it it depends, I suppose, on the client as well and the offer. Um, you know, we've got some clients who we offer um free samples, you know. Um maybe it's you know like a beta, a product-based business, and you know, they're willing to send out a product. So, like an example of a client that we have right now who are absolutely smashing it at the minute, um, they sell gloves and they their gloves are for construction workers. So them sending a sample of one glove to a huge construction firm that isn't like uh it's not gonna cause them any cost issues, right? It's just it's one glove that could be a massive proposal and deal for them, and and that's an offer we have on that one client. Then we've got different offers like um audits maybe for SEO companies, etc. So it all depends on what you're working with, what is the um the the product that you're you're marketing, I suppose. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:09

Do you have any do you have any frameworks for follow-ups? How many to send at what period and and and and what to send? You know, like I I meant my favourite follow-up ever, which doesn't really work anymore because everyone does it. And I I felt like I feel like I invented this, but I definitely didn't. Was then you do a little nudge and you go, sent from my and I'd always go like Galaxy S10 or something like that, not even like an iPhone. And it used to work really well. Nowadays it's a lot more sophisticated. We send maybe a customised case study or something along those lines. Have you tested a lot on the in the follow-up?

SPEAKER_00 37:40

Yes, but I would actually say it's not um the most important thing. The first two emails are the most important, they are where you get the most book ins. Um, so you really need to make sure that that first email it strikes a chord because you your follow-up isn't going to do anything unless they've seen it, something's resonated, and then your follow-up is just to nudge them. It's like, you know, these people are busy. They might be sales directors, marketing directors, owners of businesses. They might have seen the email, but they've got a crazy diary, and they might have liked the email and thought, you know, we are looking into that actually at the minute. That's something I should probably like take up the offer on. Um, but you know, it might just fall under the radar. So I do think the first email, you need to really focus on getting that bang on first, um, and then the follow-ups do the work. If if your first email's right, then you know the follow-up should be easy.

SPEAKER_03 38:35

Yeah, fine. Do you have a an enrichment tool of choice like clay?

SPEAKER_00 38:39

Yes, clear.

SPEAKER_03 38:41

That's good.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

Yes, clear. We also use Full Enrich. Um, they are also a pretty interesting um platform. They're almost like a more user-friendly version of Clay. Um, so we use them, um, our sales team more use that, but our service team is more like clay focused. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:58

Big up, Clay. I'm an early investor in Clay.

SPEAKER_00 39:01

Oh, yeah, nice, love that. Good one. Love that. Good one, yeah. Yeah, it's a it's a great platform. Um my co-founder went to the Clay uh headquarters actually in New York when he was spending some time out there. Um so yeah, it's an amazing, an amazing thing to invest in. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:19

For sure. That's good. It's I just love the way that they marry across so many different APIs. Yeah. And so when you are when you're working with a client, you're doing the full lead enrichment as well. So you're generating the whole list, you're you're enriching everything.

SPEAKER_00 39:32

Everything. The client on all they need to do is rock up to the call and do what they do best, which is sell the product or service that they offer.

SPEAKER_03 39:40

Nice. You scaled 93% last year, is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 39:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 39:46

How and why?

SPEAKER_00 39:48

Um I mean I think we've always uh had around 100% growth. So it isn't it's felt quite natural uh five years. Um so it's felt quite natural for us. We haven't really experienced anything else. Um I would say down to multiple things, we are not afraid to take risks, um, and we go at things with pace. Um every single day, it's how can we be one percent better in every department? Um so that's not just service, it's literally, you know, operations. How can we get better and more efficient with our operations team, um, sales enablement, etc. It's just making the 1% wins every single day, um, wherever we can. You know, our board meetings are very like intense. It's like, where are we getting the 1% constantly? And I think that's just like a mindset thing. We've always been like that. Um, we run at things with speed. If we want to take a risk, we'll just do it. We don't overthink it too much. So I'd probably say that kind of mindset and attitude, and that also um it it feeds down to you know, all of our team members' departments, you know, essentially you've got to leave from the front right. So yeah, it definitely filters down.

SPEAKER_03 41:10

So I think with many agencies, at least in the like the performance, let's say the ad marketing space, if you go out 100%, there's a lot of team infrastructure. Do you think because you just do one thing really well, you're able to scale quite lean? You don't have to bring too many. How many team members are there possible?

SPEAKER_00 41:26

40 um across locations. Um so yeah, I think that is a is is a massive factor, 100%, because obviously more complications come with additional channels um, which you know, we're growing a brand new uh function at the minute. Um which yeah, there's it comes with complications when you're building something brand new. Whereas if you just focus on one thing and just being better, better and just concentrated on that one thing does make it a little bit more simple. Yeah, so I'd I'd agree with that.

SPEAKER_03 42:00

Presumably coming from like the brand where it was like a lot smaller, it was kind of the two of you plus like the consultants. Now being a 40-person team, there's a lot of lessons in in building a team and becoming a good leader. What were some of the early mistakes you made in doing that?

SPEAKER_00 42:15

Oh, um, maybe being too nice. Um I am a people person, I like to put smiles on faces. So I think definitely um we're in a performance marketing game. Um, so you know, it it took time to learn to be super transparent with that. Um now I I I definitely lead very different to what I did when I first started. You know, I was very, very friendly with my team members. Too friendly. Uh but you learn from that. Um, because you know, when you get to a stage where something's not working and you have to have a tough conversation, yeah. You you you learn from that for sure.

SPEAKER_03 42:59

For sure. Those 40 people aren't all based in the UK, that you've got offices kind of all over, don't you? What locations do you have?

SPEAKER_00 43:05

Currently Manchester and North Macedonia. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:09

How come North Macedonia?

SPEAKER_00 43:11

So we started as a fully remote business. Um we had people based in all different parts of the world. And um we had one team member that was based in North Macedonia, um, and she was great. She understood the market very well. She came from a big competitor who was way ahead of us at the time. Um and yeah, she was just great at what she did. So and um fluent English, we had great relationship. Um, so naturally our interest was okay, could we get more people based in that location? And again, it was a bit of a strategic move in terms of having competitors over there with you know big offices. Um it it's quite a big thing, outbound email in Scorpio. Um so yeah, we went from one to two team members based there, to four to eight. Now we're about maybe 16 to 18 team members roughly um out there. Um so yeah, it's it's been a journey. We would never have expected that to have been a chapter, but it's been a great chapter. Um we're actually flying the full team out um in two, three weeks' time to Manchester. So they're all really excited about that. So we've had sort of all the visas, etc. Um so yeah, and then we've flown the Manchester team out to Scorpion multiple times, um, mainly for the Christmas party, so we can all have celebration all together, which the Manchester team absolutely love going out there. Um, it's a big holiday, I think, for those guys. Um so yeah, it'd be nice to bring the other guys over here um this time round. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:58

Is it the original team member that's that's leading that team?

SPEAKER_00 45:02

No, no, it's developed since then. Um I think um that person went on and and started doing her own um bits and pieces.

SPEAKER_03 45:11

A hub of cold outrage.

SPEAKER_00 45:12

Yeah. Um and and that's been a bit of um a trend with our business. I've noticed there's been quite a lot of people, it's not just from the service side of things, across different departments who've been with us and then they've gone on and and started up their own um thing in all different things. Um yeah, like I say, not just from a service perspective, people in different departments. And it's nice because you get messages as I've had so many messages over the last couple of years from old team members who've who've said, Look, just want to say a big thank you to you, Mitch. I learned so much. Now I'm doing this. You really believed in me, it really helped me to like catapult into my next thing. And yeah, I think that is probably why what really like makes me, I don't know, what's it just makes me feel good, I suppose, that you're making an impact on other people. Um so yeah, that's been nice.

SPEAKER_03 46:05

You you obviously put a lot of effort into culture. You won the Breakthrough Culture Awards. Yes. How did that come about?

SPEAKER_00 46:13

Um, we just got contacted about it and um they said that we uh we was we looked great with our culture, they'd like to ask us some questions, um, get some surveys done by our our team members. So quite a few team members were filling out these surveys, etc. And yeah, we won it. So yeah, that was nice. Um I think when like before Fload, um working in all different sales roles, um, this was something for me that it was really important that I would have an environment where people wanted to be. Um, one thing that I say to every new team member who comes into the business when they're having their onboarding is um not to have a mask on. Like it's really important to me that you can come to work and be your true self because I never could when I worked in other jobs. You know, I had to fit into the mould. Whereas, you know, I do think when I look, think of every single person in our business, everyone is their true selves. And I and it really creates a great inspiring environment that you know everyone's like-minded but different and quirky in their own ways, and together it just works and gels really nicely. So yeah, it's important to me.

SPEAKER_03 47:26

And how has it been developing senior leadership inside the company?

SPEAKER_00 47:30

Yeah, harder, I would say. I think it just naturally because me and Mitch have wanted to keep hold of things for so long, and I think there'll be a lot of agency owners who can relate to that. You know, it's hard to let go, um, but you it's the only way you can grow. So yeah, you you just have to. Um, so yeah, we've got a really good middle management um and SLT set up now. Um, and yeah, I think it we feel very much like we've got we've got trusted people in the right areas, so we can like try and stay out of certain things. We do try and make conscious effort with this, which is hard sometimes, um, but we do try and stay a little bit out of certain conversations, you know, not getting into the certain weeds with things and trying just keeping at top level um so we can make better decisions going forward.

SPEAKER_03 48:25

We spoke off camera about you putting more conscious effort into personal brand. And I know you and Mitch combined, I think you have over 100,000 followers on LinkedIn. Yes. Have you never been tempted to do LinkedIn outreach?

SPEAKER_00 48:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 48:42

And why not?

SPEAKER_00 48:43

Maybe pending.

SPEAKER_03 48:45

Uh okay.

SPEAKER_00 48:46

Um, it is something that we might look to do um in the future. However, we do understand that LinkedIn is clamping down right now on uh outreach. So whether that's going to be a smart move or not, could be pending, may not be pending. Depends on how things play out. But we are aware that yeah, LinkedIn are like really clamping down. Um, I know that there's a couple of agencies who only do LinkedIn outreach and they're really scaling down right now, and performance isn't working for them on that channel. So whether that will be part of our business or not, I'm not 100% sure at this moment in time. I want to see how things play out a little bit first. Um so yeah, but I do think it is something that we understand. Um, and yeah, we've we've we do it for ourselves. Um, but yeah, whether we'll move into that as a service, time will tell.

SPEAKER_03 49:42

Yeah. Are you familiar with ColdIQ?

SPEAKER_00 49:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 49:45

Are they do they do LinkedIn outreach or is it just email?

SPEAKER_00 49:49

Yes, I believe. I think they do. I think they do.

SPEAKER_03 49:54

I'm always conscious of how active they are on LinkedIn. How how how good has LinkedIn been as the platform for you as a business, like as far as inbound is concerned?

SPEAKER_00 50:02

Yeah, it's been great. Um all of our the decision makers we want to speak to are on LinkedIn. Um when we first started personal branding on LinkedIn, it wasn't what it is today. LinkedIn looked very, very different. We was one of the first to actually be on the platform. There was probably like a handful of people that I remember at the time who was building a personal brand. And it was very like unique and it felt out of place because LinkedIn had always been prior such that like corporate social environment. Um, but we spotted an opportunity because we saw a couple of people doing it, not many. We was like, this is interesting, this is where our decision makers live. We need to focus on this as a channel. Um, also, we understand from our sales background, people buy from people. Um, and yeah, I do think because we are so um an open book on LinkedIn, I think this plays to as a as an advantage for us because, especially in our market, which is lead generation, um it has a bad rep. Um, whereas for us, we put our face to everything. Um, and we're very like transparent, showcasing what we do internally, you know, even our sales pictures, we will dive into examples and we we like to be very transparent, both you know, whether it's on LinkedIn or whether you're like in a conversation with us about using our services. Um, so yeah, LinkedIn's been an interesting one. I believe brand is really important to any business. Um, so LinkedIn really helped us with you know building a buzz because when we were doing the e-com things, that was more B2C. So Instagram and TikTok, that was more our channels back then. And we moved over to LinkedIn because that's obviously where our ICP lived. Um and yeah, we've been able to create a buzz on that on that platform over the years. We've generated millions of impressions over the over the years, um, which has helped us get eyeballs on the brand. Um, and yeah, I think people have warmed to like there's a lot of because we are so like open and transparent and we will put stories out there, like I think people find it relatable. Um, and again, people buy from people, and we've we've won a lot of contracts just based off that because they've been, you know, they might get our outreach, um, our outbound outreach, they'll do research, they'll go straight onto LinkedIn, a normal thing, a normal path to take. Um and on there, you know, we will put out value, um, you know, all different things that we do internally that we see as a successful campaign. We'll give out as much value as possible, but we'll also tell you a lot about who we are as people as well. So before people come to a conversation with us, I think they feel like they already know us. Um, so yeah, it's it's been great. And I would definitely recommend it for any B2B agency founder. Definitely get yourself on on there because you they you know your potential clients will be doing research on you.

SPEAKER_03 53:12

Do you get more lead flow? I don't know if you track this from your brand or Mitch's brand.

SPEAKER_00 53:19

So I am creating more content currently than Mitch, so yes, um, because I've got more visibility. Um one, I mean, this could people might not like this, but from the research that we have done, from an outbound perspective, women perform better. That's what I was gonna ask you. Um, yeah, which sometimes people don't like to hear that, but it's just true. Um, the data shows that. So I think naturally, you know, if it whatever campaigns that we're running, whether it's on LinkedIn, whether it's on outbound email, we do like to test the waters with that as well. Because why would you not? If the data's telling you one thing, go with the data, you know.

SPEAKER_03 54:00

Would you 100% uh it was I wanted to ask you that because we did a study ourselves on the same thing of outbound and found the exact same thing. Yeah. Um and uh a good friend of mine's Laura Acosto on LinkedIn absolutely crushes on the platform. We just always have that conversation. I wonder when you're doing outbound for a brand or a company and they've got let's say you know, first of all, do you always opt presumably the person that you're sending from is always the person that's closely linked to the offer that makes sense for the offer, or are you really tactical about who you're picking from the company? Um and would you pick the most senior person in relation to it, or would you actually prioritize a female archetype of person over male, regardless of seniority?

SPEAKER_00 54:51

No, we wouldn't do that. Just because um there needs to be a smooth transition of who you're speaking to on cold out, say you you, you know, we're talking about outbound email here. If you've you're building a relationship in a thread on email and then you get passed to someone else, it's not a good look. So, no, we don't over-prioritize having a woman avatar. Um, we know it works, and you know, if there is a client and there's a senior person who can be on the end of those conversations, we will explain to them that this could work really well and give them some logic behind that. But no, we wouldn't like intentionally purposely do that because you're gonna create friction down the site sales cycle and you don't want to create any friction. So, yeah, would rec actually recommend against that.

SPEAKER_03 55:41

So, broadly speaking, the person who's the emails are coming from needs to be the person who's gonna be. 100%.

SPEAKER_00 55:46

Yeah, because you know, it you need to be um converting. Yeah. It's the most important thing. And y if you're creating friction, you you you you um you what's the word?

SPEAKER_03 56:01

Well, you just the conversion shit. I think it's a mistake a lot of agencies make when they're doing their outreach, is like we'll we'll though when the when they first hire the sales team, they think it's better for the email to come from the founder because they're the person with more authority, and then it gets switched over to someone else on the call and then the show-up rate shit.

SPEAKER_00 56:17

She's irritating. I mean, it's like I think I've been having a conversation with the founder, and they just throw me off to sales rep. Great, thanks for that. So yeah, try not to do that if you can.

SPEAKER_03 56:32

So obviously um AI is is making a it's making some really big shifts in the space at the moment, especially with like B2B outbound is such a systemizable like service. Like it really it's a it's a tech service at the end of the day. How are you looking at the future of AI in relation to the service and what really are the main ways that you're using it currently in the as far as delivery are concerned?

SPEAKER_00 56:57

I think it's just obviously we've we've learned so many best practices over the years. We really understand the ins and outs of all different areas of outbound email. So I think it's just with AI, you really need to um yeah, create. I mean, I'm I'm thinking about a project that we've got going on at the minute within Cloud. And it's about yeah, just just feeding as much information into Cloud so you can get the best possible outcome. Um, but we do also want to ensure that we have people who are monitoring it, orchestrating it, um, making sure we're getting the best possible outcome. Um, and again, it comes back to brand reputation as well. Uh, you if you just totally rely on AI, you could come into some problems with that. And you know, we work with some big, um, big enterprise clients, and brand is, you know, really important to them. So, you know, I would also argue the point that if you was to go fully AI, then it could be potentially damaging on those relationships. So I think there has got to be a bit of a happy medium, but of course, like we're utilising AI as much as possible to be as efficient as possible. Like I said, we very much look at it as thinking partners and it can make us 10 times more efficient and better as well. Um, I actually think that we're currently going through uh the great AI hesitation phase. Now, this isn't just in particular to agencies, I think it's a across business, different businesses. It's a question that I'm hearing all the time is is this making the person lazy? Is this gonna replace my job? But I do think that we need to be thinking about it in that different way of like this can make you 10 times more efficient, 10 times more better. But essentially that all comes with testing. And don't run before you can walk. Like make if you are gonna implement AI, just make sure that you've yeah, just stress tested it as much as possible. And where are you where are the areas that you know AI might not actually be able to support you? Yeah, and it's just looking at the org structure really in a more detailed manner to make sure that yeah, you can still have your premium service.

SPEAKER_03 59:24

So do you think uh in the future AI will replace B2B outbound in agency in the sense that you will be using AI systems to run B2B outbound completely, or are you quite resistant to that idea?

SPEAKER_00 59:41

Uh definitely not resistant. Um AI is something that, like I say, we've been quite early adopters to, so not resistant at all. It's just whatever works best. Um so it is all about testing. Um I wouldn't want to, you know, commit to saying anything until I've done the testing and read the data and and made my assumptions based on like a lot of testing because I think there is so much testing to be done still. Um so yeah, it just depends on the testing.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:12

Yeah, that makes sense. But I've got some quick fire questions for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:16

What's one brand or company that you'd love to work with that you haven't already?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:21

Ooh. Um I don't think there's like a particular like brand as such, but uh something that is like a really interesting market for us at the minute is um product-based businesses. Um so if we can, you know, be involved with some of the big enterprise uh product-based businesses, that's working very well for us at the minute. It's something that we've got a lot of focus on as a business. Um yeah, I would say like and enterprise businesses, there's there's loads out there that you'd love to obviously work with. Um, but yeah, so I'd just say product-based businesses, big brands, obviously that that would be the focus.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:05

And one thing that every agency owner should stop doing immediately.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:09

Three things.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:10

One thing that every agency owner should stop doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:16

Probably getting too involved in things. I suppose it depends where you're at as a business, but as you start scaling, we're talking about more like scaling operations and agencies, then I think the founders can actually hold the business back sometimes. If they're getting too involved, you need to just be able to step out of the situation and trust your team to do the job. Um, so and that I think is probably the biggest thing I see with other agency owners that I know, like it's really hard for them to like let go, they have to get involved in a situation. I actually don't think that always is helpful.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:55

Um, what is one habit that's helped you the most as a founder?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:04

Positive self-talk. Random, but um mindset is everything, literally mindset is everything, and it's something that I'm really passionate about as well. Um, you know, I don't think anyone's born confident or born to think super positively, you are a product of your environment, and I have definitely had to rewire my brain. Um, I was brought up more around like what can go wrong versus what can go right. So rewiring the way I think about certain things and the unconscious conversation I'm having. I think if you can get a hold of that and get a real grip of that, you can go on and truly do anything, like anything really is possible, but it all starts with your mind 100%. So I'm really passionate about that. Um, and yeah, I just would not be doing what I am today if it wasn't for all the rewiring that I've done over the years for sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:04

Nice. One thing that you wish you'd learnt earlier.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:07

Hmm. I suppose how important senior leadership and middle management team is, again, it comes back to that. You it's hard to let go. Um, but if we'd have done it even sooner, we would have had even more explosive growth. So maybe that. Um we could have maybe maybe sped up if we'd have made those decisions a bit earlier.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:30

And then finally, if you now look at everything that you've done with Fload and you were starting again from scratch tomorrow, what's the first thing that you would go and do?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:40

Learn AI prompting 100%. 100%. Um get good at prompting with AI because the amount of things that you can do now within 30 minutes, God, you could never do that when we started. Um, you know, speaking to one of my friends who's just started a Pilates studio and she set she set up a website within 30 minutes um with the support of AI. And it's just, yeah, back back then got it didn't look like that what whatsoever. Um so get good at AI prompting because you can, if you get good at that, you can make, you can easily create a one million pound business quickly, but get good at that first, and then you know, you're able to scale and not need to think about too many other things because you've got your assistant good to go and you're you're the master of prompting. So 100% that.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:35

Love it. Good advice. Thanks for coming on.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:39

Thank you so much for having me.