SPEAKER_00 0:00

Most overrated trend in marketing right now.

SPEAKER_01 0:02

AI two people want all of this AI. The reaction to it from the consumer that you're trying to reach is comment, AI slot, not interested, unfollowed. The only thing you can really trust is the thing that you saw in real life with your own eyes.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

You started Nobody's Cafe, creative agency that's now working with the brands like Amazon, with Spotify, Netflix.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

How does that work? We do stuff with Red Bull, they do loads and loads of events. We take probably 1% of all the events that they do. Can you remember an advert you saw this morning? Not really, the first gig that you went to? The answer is usually yes. It's creating things that people will remember for the rest of their lives. We create that sort of environment.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

I really like the idea of everyday brands, maybe even local businesses hosting events.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

It's not always huge, huge budgets to put on an event. A DTC brand can just do a walk. Bring the founder and go for a walk in a local park. That's how Nike started was with experiential marketing. We used to turn up to track meets with the shoes. Now Nike is one of the biggest experiential marketers on the planet. Social media was born out of the idea of connecting us all together, but it's actually made us less connected. That desire to connect with people, that is what drives experiential marketing.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

In the long term, you're probably in the safest vehicle.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

It just keeps on getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

One skill every agency owner needs.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Everyone is too focused on the immediate. There are agencies out there that are doing revenues of 500 million. I thought it was a scam. I turned out it was real.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

I mean, David. Welcome to Agency Giants.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Pleasure. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

So you got made redundant during lockdown. Yep. And then you started Nobody's Cafe, a creative agency that's now working with the brand, brands like Amazon, with Spotify, Netflix. A creative agency during lockdown.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

How does that work? Oh well, a creative agency that specializes in live events during lockdown. So double double whammy, really. So I was made redundant and I realized I wasn't gonna get a job anywhere because like my main focus has always been events, and no one was hiring for events in the middle of June 2020. Um, I had wanted to start my own thing before that, and I'd kind of come up with the name in 2019 and all of this stuff. So I just took it as a sign to to to go ahead and do it. I knew I wasn't going to get any clients straight away. I did think lockdowns and COVID would last a little bit shorter than I than it did. Um, but I my in my head I was like, go for six months, and if you don't get anything in six months, just call it a day. Um, use this time while a lot of the other agencies are kind of like trying to pivot, trying to all that just use that time to just get your name out there because I think that is such an important thing, is like the more people that know who you are, the more opportunities that you get for your agency, for your business, whatever it might be. So I was like, I'm just gonna do that. I was on Clubhouse a lot um when that was a big thing, um, just talking about the brand, and then um pretty much on the six-month mark, get a LinkedIn message from someone at Amazon being like, What do you want to pitch? I was like, obviously. Um, and then we ended up doing a few bits of work for Amazon Prime Video, so those were the that was our first client. Um, so yeah, so the that the struggle was kind of like I knew what I was getting into, so it wasn't like we started before the pandemic and the pandemic hit, and then I was like, what do I do? I knew that the pandemic was happening, I didn't know it would last as long, but I was I saw it as an opportunity rather than a negative thing. I saw it as like I have got an ability now to get the name out there to people when people are sat at home, when people are more receptive to taking calls, when people are on LinkedIn and on socials more. It's an opportunity to kind of like just get the name out there, get the name out there, and eventually something will come from it. And Prime Video, which is not a bad starting point for any agency, came from it, and then from there we started working with brands like Travago, um, you know, like Spotify, Netflix. Uh, we do stuff for Red Bull, so it's just all sort of like snowballed from that.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

But I think it's just pretty sensational first client again.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Yeah, it was, it was. It was a bit like to be honest with you, I thought it was a scam. I thought like it was like I was I looked on LinkedIn, I was like, yeah, this can't be, this isn't real. Uh, but yeah, it turned out it was real, and we had a few campaigns with them.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

That initial strategy on Clubhouse. Uh, what was what were you doing there? What were you talking about? How did you get into the right rooms that that were on the platform?

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Yeah, um, yeah, interesting, interesting question. Like, I kind of just was on there a lot. There wasn't much to do. I was seeing who was talking about what, and then matching that up with LinkedIn as well. Like a lot of people on LinkedIn were starting to post, I'm gonna be in this clubhouse at this time, and then moving to that. So I was kind of tracking that a little bit and then following that through. And then once you started to get into the right rooms, a lot of people were doing that sort of like on a some of them were doing it on a daily basis, but people were doing it sort of weekly, and I would get in, I would put put my hand up and jump onto the stage, as they called it, and like having those conversations and just consistency, really, with any of these things, like with LinkedIn, with Clubhouse. I know it's no longer consistent because it um isn't around, but it's just about exploring what's there, trying to sort of find like-minded people and connecting with them, connecting with them onto another platform like a LinkedIn, and then chatting to them about like what room are you gonna be in? All right, cool. We'll be in this room, we'll have these conversations. Sometimes it was finding other friends that were in the industry and being like, right, should we start our own room and do something? And did a bit of that, and then that draw drew more people in. And I still speak to a lot of the people from that time and from the sort of like clubhouse now. Like, I'm on um I'm an advisory board member of Elevate Mentoring, um, which is a um free mentoring service for people in the events industry, so not non-nonprofit. That I think there's about 600 people, sort of 300 mentors, 300 mentees, and events and all that side of things. I'm on the advisory board for that. That all started because of Clubhouse. Um, there was a guy called Max who is the founder of Elevate Mentoring, or one of the founders, and connected with him, he was talking about it. I signed up, met with him, and then I've been part of that for four or five years now. So it's it's not just about, I think for a lot of these things, um, this is LinkedIn, this is social, people make sort of like surface-level connections sometimes, and they don't really follow them up, they don't stay connected with people, they don't message them ever again, they'll just maybe comment here and there, but they don't ever take those connections offline. I think it's always about taking any connections you make, whether it's Clubhouse, Instagram, LinkedIn, wherever it might be, offline when you can, especially in a sort of career sort of networking perspective, because that's where it becomes real. And so, like when someone's from a clubhouse will message and be like, can we can we chat? Whether that's a Zoom or can we meet up in person? I'm like, Yeah, let's let's do it. And you actually turn that what can be quite surface level, social media can be you turn that into a real connection of people you kind of know and and it builds. And like, like I said, I'm I'm on an advisory board because of Clubhouse. Yeah, like um the when Prime Video reached out, they were like, Oh, we've been recommended. So, like that was because of conversations that were being had on Clubhouse, and like do you know what I mean? So it it's it's those type of things. Like, I think we do look at social media as it's it's weird. Like social media was born out of the idea of connecting us all together, but it's actually made us less connected. But I think that's also because people use it in the wrong way, to a sense. They like it. I look at it as it's like it's a driver to then connect properly in person or like having conversations with people one-to-one. Whereas a lot of people are like, this is the connection, and it it that isn't the connection. That is a kind of like a an an opening to a connection rather than it being the the actual connection. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

It sounds like that's something that kind of carried across from your exposure to using Clubhouse, which for anyone that's watching this who wasn't exposed to that, which I would be surprised was of course a like a basically a chat room app, effectively, in where you'd have one person coming to speak on stage and everybody else would listen. You'd have some people on there for eight, nine hours a day really preaching, this is the future, this is the future, and then seem to just fizzle out. As someone who's involved in experiential marketing yourself, which I want to unpack. I'm interested in your perception of why you think the the experience of Clubhouse didn't last and why that why why that died, because it very much seems like it's something that you carried forward in the strategy that you've used to, you know, get to 50k on LinkedIn, for example.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

I I think it took up so much time. So whereas on LinkedIn you can kind of like post something and then come back to it, it's really hard to do that on something like Clubhouse. You are effectively having a constant panel discussion at all points. And yeah, it's not actually going to a venue and sitting on a panel, but it is it is that. Like, we can't have this conversation and then dive off from it for like a few minutes and then and then jump back and go, all right, yeah, and then carry it on. Like this conversation has to kind of be constant for however long it is, how however long we do it. So this is taking up our entire time. You Clubhouse demanded your time in a way that other social media like it takes your time, but it doesn't demand your time in the same way. So, for example, you can scroll on Instagram and also have the TV on in the background and be watching your show, but like half scrolling and um whereas you can't for Clubhouse, you have to be you have to be in. And it is a bit like, and even with sort of like a podcast that you might listen to on your walk, you can a bit, but then sometimes you might zone out a little bit on I know I do sometimes on not on this one, but on the on on some of the podcasts when I'm walking, like I'll miss a bit and I'll have to like rewind. I'll be like, right, uh I don't know what I was doing, I might have been concentrating on crossing the road or whatever it might be. Cool, I'm gonna rewind and listen again. Can't do that on Clubhouse. You it was all it's like you're in, and then it's like if you're on stage, you have to be doubly in because you you now need to respond to what someone else has said. So that I think was the problem. It was that need for sort of like being always on, which during lockdown, amazing, it it was captivating, people had that time, but then as that stopped, and I know myself, I was like, this is just taking up my day now, and I don't have that time available to me anymore. Um, and I think that just was the same for everyone, really. Like, and also part of it was if I'm gonna have a conversation with someone or panel, I want to do that in I want to do that in real life. I want to see people, I want to have real conversations, I want to go back to the restaurant and sit around a table and chat with my friends. I don't necessarily want to do that in a digital platform anymore. And I think because it was was more like sitting around and being with friends than something like an Instagram or a TikTok or any or LinkedIn. Those can you can kind of dip in, dip out, you can be out in the street, have a quick look, and then move on and like have a quick look, get back to what you were doing, and then it stays as it was. Doesn't it doesn't move on really? That's why it died out, which is it was a shame. It was it what it was a good platform, and I think it still exists to be fair, but um obviously not to the the levels it was. I think it was like the valuation was crazy, and then it's it's dipped massively, massively. Um but like and I think that and to your point of like experiential marketing, that desire to connect with people, to be around people, to chat with people, that is what drives experiential marketing. That is what drives what we do and what kind of it's really core is it's interesting because it's like it's just core to the human experience. We want to be around other people, we want to connect and be in rooms and chat to and meet new people. It's just what we've always always done. Um and so what we do with sort of brand experiences experiential is that from a branding perspective and from an advertising perspective, we are bringing people together to actually have those conversations in real life, experience things in real life, and social media has driven us into this sort of like these people are doing all of these things, and you can kind of look at them, but away from actually like being around people and experiencing those things. And I think what I love about our industry is it like it reconnects back to that, and yeah, it is advertising, and people might say, Oh, like there's something wrong with advertising. I don't ever really look at it like that, or there's something wrong with brands always being involved or or whatever, but brands have the ability to allow people to connect and chat and do whatever they might do, and on all of those things in restaurants and hospitality and all these places, and I think that's really cool. And I think just back to your question, which was about Clubhouse, it kind of fizzled out because people had the opportunity to go back to doing that. Yeah. And I think we we wanted to go back to that as soon as we possibly could.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

So the thing that made it the best the do so well is the thing that made it struggle afterwards as well. The very same thing as society changed around it effectively.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:02

Can you, for someone who hasn't been exposed to experiential marketing before, compare, let's say, uh let's say a traditional creative agency that may be looking to create video creative, for example, to the kind of project that you would work on as an agency?

SPEAKER_01 15:17

So what we do with brand experience is it's interesting because it combines a lot of elements of marketing and advertising. So to your point, like we will still make content on the back of what we do, but the main thing is an experience. So that can be a supper club with 30 people, whether that be a B2B networking dinner or it's an influencer dinner, it could be something like that. But it can also scale right up to a thousand-person dance event like the stuff that we do for Red Bull, where you've got performers on stage, you've got that type of thing. And it really focuses in on that in-person experience, whether that is that small intimate gathering, whether it's a a huge event. Um, and it's it's really driving a brand by creating community around it in person. So, like I said, we'll use the dinner as an example, like that bringing together of people then drives sort of loyalty for the people that are in the room, but then also like what generally happens is the content is created around that that be photography, videography. It also is like them posting their dinner and their experience as well. So, what we do is we create that sort of environment. So that is finding the venue, that is organizing what they're gonna be cooking and what they're gonna be eating, what the cutlery looks like, the floral displays, the spatial design, even down to like what's the music that's gonna be playing. We sort of curate all of those elements to pull it together, and then we go on to the bigger scale of the thousand-person dance event. We're working with staging, we're working with AV, we'll still help find venues within talent management, like we have performers like um Double E, Nooks, Sky Newman that we've been working with recently, like they're tech riders, what do they need, all of this stuff, like that side of the AV, the lighting. So we curate all of that environment and this world that people then inhabit. So, for example, on like the the Red Bull example, and and they do loads and loads of events. We we take probably one percent of all the events that they do in terms of that, but they're they're amazing events that we get involved with. But they are bringing people into that world without just being like forcing Red Bull advertising down people's throats. It's like, and I think that's the difference between us and traditional advertising. Like the the way I I kind of look at it is that people pay to avoid traditional advertising, whereas people pay to be part of the events that we put on. And I think if you look at that, it's kind of like the the the advertising model as it is now in terms of like digital and all of these things. Like, we are constantly being asked, do we want to skip, do we want to reject, do we want to block advertising? Whereas that doesn't happen for an event, it's more of a choice to be part of it. So you choose to go to that dinner, so you're already making a conscious choice of like, I want to be involved with what this brand is doing. Whereas a lot of creative now is kind of like the opposite, it's a choice of like, I want to block this advert, and I just want to look at my social media account and follow the influencers and hear what they have to say, but I don't necessarily want an ad put put in front of me. So, like, again, with the the Red Bull example, people are choosing to go to that event, they're choosing to be part of that world, and they know it's they know it's a Red Bull world. It's not that a case of like it's a a shock, like I didn't know this was really very clearly that, but they're making that conscious decision of like, I want to be around people, I want to see this performance, and and that's kind of the the core difference of of what we're doing.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

So a brand like the likes of Red Bull. When they're putting on an event and they're working with you, you guys on a project, they are looking to win the hearts of the people that attend the event itself, and of course amplify that widely. But that's the really the core goal is to win those influencers rather than anything that's directly attributed to the event success as far as direct sales and so on are concerned. Because it's somewhat un unquantifiable, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:06

Yeah, the it is that, and it's not always influencers, it's consumers as well. So the it's a it's a mix, it's not. I think I always try and look at it as like brand, community. I know the word community is used a lot, but I always try and put brand in front of it because I think community is a slightly separate thing. So that includes influencers, that also includes consumers. Um, and I think we incorrectly put these two people in different boxes based on what their social following is. They are at the core people that are at the core consumers. They might have different aims and different needs slightly, but generally, if it's a good event, it's a good event for a consumer and it's a good event for an influencer. So I try not to kind of separate them out too much. Um, but yeah, the main thing is like the experience on the ground has to be good. And we always say like the experience is everything. Like we can't do something that is just focused on what's the amplification on the on the back end of that. Because if you go to something and you don't have a good time, you can't really fake that, even if I pay you to fake it, it's really hard to fake a bad experience and it just feels inauthentic. And if there's someone else there that is like, this was awful, and then they see a post from you saying this was the best thing ever, it's very clear that that was that was paid for, and you don't actually feel like that. So yeah, the the the core is always like what's the experience on the ground, amplification of that experience is is a is a big, big key element, but it's always comes secondary to like are people enjoying what's happening at the actual experience? Because if they're not, then that key element is always going to fall flat because there will be people. People there that aren't paid to say what they thought, and they will just they will say the they'll say the truth. So, like in terms of winning hearts and minds, you the first thing that you want to do is win the hearts and minds of the people that attend the the experience, they attend the event, because if you don't do that, then everything else falls flat. You then there is content around that. Um, there's photography, depending on the type of event, there might be getty there or photographer that goes straight out to press. We did something for um Poppy recently, and Maya Jamma was there, and that goes straight out to the press, and so you get amplification through that side of things, then yeah, then you get amplification through influencers, but also there is just consumers that don't necessarily have the biggest followings, but once you start adding those followings up, it very quickly like um the amplification jumps. So you might have a thousand followers, someone else might have a thousand followers, but you start ramping all of those up, and all of these people post about the amazing event that they were at, and that reaches a hundred people, even if it's just 10% of their following, that reaches that. Suddenly you're like, well, we invited a thousand people, but we reached a million, million plus with this activation. And what we've seen, especially from like some of the startup brands that we work with, we work with brands like Tonic Health. Uh, we've worked with brands like um Hunter and Gather that are a bit smaller but still growing brands. Like the response that they get to in-person activations on their social channels, is sometimes 10 times better than any of their other posts because people are really engaged, even if they're not at the experience. And I think that is a big thing that is sometimes missed. People think, well, it only works if you're at the experience, it only has an impact if you're at the experience, but it it it doesn't really work like that. It works in the sense of like you can not be there but still be impacted by the idea of it. You're also impacted by this this core FOMO, but there's also the ability of like, I want to go to that the next time it happens, so there's a driver built out of I wasn't there, but I assume it's gonna happen again in some form, and now I know I want to be there. So, in terms of winning hearts and minds, you've got loyalty built into the idea of I'm gonna be able to go to the next event that this brand puts on because this this one looked amazing. I'm a bit gutted I didn't get to go, but it still looks great. And a lot of the comments you get on these things is like, when's the next one? Will you do one of these in my city? Where are you coming to next? I really wish I could have been there, can't believe it. Like, and some a brand like Poppy that has such a loyal community and following. All of those comments were like, When are you coming to my city? When are you doing this here? Oh my god, I can't believe I missed it. Oh my god, oh my god. Um, and that is how you kind of win the hearts and the minds of the people there, but then how that sort of sort of grows and it becomes part of the sort of brand ethos. It becomes part of like what people understand about the brand and like why they want to be involved beyond the product, like well beyond the product, to be honest. It's like it's becoming part of like I want to be part of the experience, and you look at some luxury brands that that have the budget, and they are opening cafes like the Prada Cafe, for example, because they want people to kind of be part of that experience and feel part of the brand, even if they're not buying the product because they can't necessarily afford the product yet. It's sort of aspirational. You can afford the the cake, and you can post that and you can be like, Oh, I was in the Prada Cafe and it was beautiful. And that drives the idea that you want to be part of the brand world, and eventually you buy the bag, you save up, you buy the bag, or you can you get to a point in your life where you can afford that thing when you were 21 going to the Prada Cafe, you you get to 30 and you're like, I can afford that. And I've been I've been going to the cafe since for nine, ten years now, to the desire of I've I've the brand's been part of my life for such a long period of time, not necessarily from owning the products, but from going to the experiences. So you can win hearts and minds in in that sense as well, from those type of experiences of like, and if a brand can be consistent and they can do multiple events year on year, um, Red Bull is really good at this. Again, you've got someone that's like part of this experience every single year, and so like that means the brand stays in your mind throughout that year without having to be like, here's a poster, here's this, here's that, here's that. You remember the experience that you had a year ago, and you also look forward to the next time you can have that experience. So I think it's really a tangible memory that is created that is linked to a brand. And I think, and and I use this example. Can you remember an advert you saw this morning? The answer nowadays is usually not not really. Can you remember the first gig that you went to? The answer is usually yes, and sometimes that's 20 years ago, sometimes it's 30, 40 years ago. But you can't remember the ad you saw this morning. Like if you had some asked someone, can you remember an ad you saw six months ago? Like, not even not even close. But do you remember a really good dinner you went to? Do you remember a really good conference, event, gig, all of these things? Like everybody remembers these for years and years, and sometimes they're the things they never forget, but it's unlikely you're gonna be like, I met a really good friend because we were both watching an ad at home on our screens at the same time, and that created a friendship that has lasted for years, or I met my partner at an ad. You meet your partner at an event, you meet your partner at a gig, or and all these things, you meet friends, you you become part of a community, and that's what the brands are doing, they're creating this linked memory based on being at the same thing. I think you can look at festivals as well, like Glastonbury or Coachella, you can go to Glastonbury a different year from someone and mention the fact that you've both been to Glastonbury and you feel connected, but you didn't go in the same year, but you still feel connected to that person. So brands create events that happen year on year. You can say, Oh, I went to that last year. Oh, was it was it as good as last year? Oh no, they had someone else perform. Oh, so now you're connected to someone you didn't even go to the same event as that you're just having a conversation because you've been to similar events in different years, and that is to your point, and you question hearts and minds. I think it's like a really important thing, and that's and that's why I love this industry, that's why I love brand experiences, what we what we do, because I actually think it's creating things that people will remember for the rest of their lives, and I like I love the entire industry and ads, and that's to be honest. Like, when I was younger, I thought I was gonna that's what I wanted to do, get into like making TV adverts, like that's what I wanted. But as things have changed and shifted and social media became part of this, and streaming and all of these things, like I felt like all of those it got fragmented to such an extent that TV advertising isn't the same as it was when I was growing up, like advertising in itself isn't the same as it was, and like people it experiences hospitality events in a way, and it's funny because our Nobody's Cafe is actually named after a bar that's a hundred years old that was in Latin America called Cafe Dinnity, because it it's still that same spirit of bringing people together to have an amazing time and enjoy their experiences have unforgettable memories, and like that's just still core to being human and and what we all want, really.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

So and is arguably only gonna get more prevalent in the world that we're moving into, which I'd like to unpack shortly. But I'm really interested to know the commercial model behind the business, because yeah, most importantly, like what you're measured on, whether whether it's you know, okay, we are surveying and these are the metrics we're looking for, or whether it's more energetic and and more of a feeling of okay, this event went really well. Uh and then how as a result of that, how do you get compensated as an agency for work for the clients?

SPEAKER_01 31:28

So, in terms of in terms of the the measurables, that's always been a tough thing for our industry. Um, we originally and and still are to an extent, measured against things we shouldn't be. So, in the sense of like we are measured against TV, we can get 10 million reach. Okay, well, you can only get 100 people to your event. Okay. So there is still some of that, and we are still suffering from models that kind of need to shift. Because to your point, like, how do you how do you measure that? And another thing is we measure on too short a period, as I was saying earlier, like you're measured on whether you saw an advert, but if I ask you six months later, do you remember it? The answer is probably no. We don't measure six months down the line, and that is a problem for a brand experience agency because we should be measuring further down the line. Do you remember that event you went to six months ago? Yeah. Do you remember whose event it was? Yeah, cool. Like that in itself, like, yes, you might have only reached 100 people, but those hundred people are going to remember you for six months. You might have done a TV ad for 10 million, but they didn't like if they even actually saw it and it wasn't just shown on their box, like um, give them away age calling a TV a box. But um, but those type of things. So, yeah, we are sort of measured. Attendance is still one of the things that we're measured on, and just generally the event itself. So, like the experience that's been created, the quality of the spatial design, the quality of the content that comes off the back of it, all of those things are sort of seen as the measurables. Sometimes we are measured on like what PR success has come off the back, sometimes we are measured off influencers, and like what have they posted, what's the reach of their post, those type of things are sometimes things that we are measured on. It does vary because some events have those goals, some events don't have those goals. And some brands are doing it for some of those metrics. Some some brands aren't. So like companies like Red Bulls and the bigger ones like that, sometimes like the Netflix, the Amazons, those type of brands, they're not necessarily saying like we need to hit these metrics because if we don't, this the event is a failure. They are doing it to create an entire like brand ethos, a brand world, and being part of that. Some of the sort of more startup brands, they do have sort of clearer like objectives and goals that they need to measure against the success. Um, and that is sometimes like influencers, like what's been the reach of a campaign, what's been the amplification, what's the PR. Attendance is is always going to be something. Like you turn up to an event and no one's there, it's never really going to be called a success. So attendance will always be something. But in terms of us getting better at that, I think that's something that we need to do. And I think you said there about surveys and how do we do that. And I think as technology gets better, and it's probably already at a level where we can do stuff like this, we need to be kind of going back to people down the line. Um, I was excited for a bit about like NFTs, not for like the art side of it, but the idea that like you could go to an event, the brand could give you an NFT, and then that could change six months down the line, and it would be in your wallet, and then something, and it'd ask you a question. Do you remember this event? That type of thing to kind of stay connected and like measure that and that be immeasurable. Unfortunately, NFTs kind of die to death. Um, but the technology is still there, and I think it might come back on an in another format, a bit like QR codes that came back under another format, and at a certain point they they were they worked. Um so that is an area I would love to see. Like, how do we get better at measurement? How do we figure out like, and I was saying that earlier, you might have a a thousand followers on your um on your Instagram. It might not be the million, it might be a hundred thousand, but that is still a thousand people you might be reaching with that. So, how do we measure that? Because we don't usually do that either. Like, we will look at the posts of influencers and people with large followings, but we don't look at the posts of other people that have attended. So there's there's ways to get better. In terms of like commercial model, it's it's usually based on sort of like what's the overall budget. We then take a management of that overall production budget, so whatever that might be, it it varies on on job to job. So there's not a kind of like an exact number, but there's the time, the resource, the people that go into kind of like creating creating an experience. Um our focus is always on sort of like that being where we sort of like the the business makes the money is on the people used and to to build the activations rather than paying for a markup on an item, because I think we've kind of got past that, and that was sort of like the model most agencies worked in. I've been in the industry for for quite a while, and that was the model, but I think we've got past that, and I kind of like I had a moment of that when I was at an agency and I was working with a client and we'd pulled everything together, and we were charging £50 for multiple chairs, and the client in the meeting with me gets up his phone, shows me the IKEA chair for half the price, and says, Is this the chair? I'm like, Yeah. And he's like, Well, why are you charging me double? And do you know what I mean? And I think we're we're beyond that point of being able to just go, like, oh, we're gonna put markup on all of these production elements when it's like the reality is we're all savvy and wise enough, and well, this was before AI. So, like, it's very quick to go, right? Here's a picture of that. How much did it cost? Cole, why are you charging me this? It it it used to be you need to audit and you need to do all of this, and blah, blah, blah, and all like now, it's like here's a picture of the thing, and like that. So we we we really focus on our time, our sort of like our connections, us being able to pull people together to do it better, generally more cost-effectively as well, because we know what someone should be charging for something. We know like this is gonna cost this, we can get it for that, we can do this, if we piece this together, we can do that. So you're buying our expertise of being able to pull it together in a way that you can't necessarily do internally. And again, I think that's a little bit what our industry suffers from is that everyone thinks they can put on an event. Not everyone thinks they can do a digital advertising, not everyone thinks they can do TV advertising or billboards, but everyone thinks like, oh, well, I've done a dinner party with my friends. I can I can put on an event. But it's like it's a skill set that is learned over time and like finding the right venue, having those connections. And also just like some of these people we work with, like, they know we're gonna come back and do more work. So they're giving us better rates because we're coming back and we're gonna do more. They if someone just comes randomly, they're like, Well, I don't know if you're ever we're ever gonna work with you ever again, so I'm just gonna give you like the standard rate card. Whereas we've just we're doing four of four different events with this same company, they they give us lower rates so we're able to do more within smaller budgets for for clients, whereas it might cost them double that or or whatever it might be. So, but the focus is yeah, like paying for for our time and our sort of like expertise, really, and also just incredibly time consuming to put on events yourself, like being down that rabbit hole, and it is just a lot of stress.

SPEAKER_00 40:12

Yeah, does that limit scalability as an agency?

SPEAKER_01 40:16

Um not really, like I think with with any creative agency, you are kind of always a bit limited by like number of people that you're that you're able to hire. I think like with what we do, we're really I was gonna say lucky, but it's it's it's by design, so it's not necessarily look. It's the suppliers that we work with feel almost part of our team. Like we collaborate with them in a way that it's like when we're working, they're they're part of what we're doing. So I'm like, people sort of always look at like, well, what's your team size? And I'm like, this is our core team and our full-time team. But to deliver an event, that's not our full-time team. Like, I'm not like out there like plugging in all of the speakers and putting a stage together myself. Like, I don't do that stuff, I bring in people that do that, so that means we're never really limited in terms of scalability because of the suppliers we work with. So, for example, we're a we're a team, but then we're we're a small team full-time, but then we will do something like Poppy. And and and for this one, I actually got videos because it was like it's just sort of like and and photography to show how big the team scales up to. Because uh we're we go from being a team of four to being a team of 30, 40 people to deliver an actual event, and so we scale up using that way. So, in terms of the actual day-to-day, it's quite streamlined, it's bringing these people together and that side of things, and then you scale up, you deliver the event, then you then you then you come back down to the size that you need to be until until the next one, then you scale back up, and it is about having people that you trust and suppliers that you trust that you can work with and building those up over time, and the that again to to that point is like the more you work with them, the more you trust them, the more they know that there's gonna be more stuff, the more they want to help you out, and all of this stuff. So um, I think, and and look at some of the other agencies that are out there, and I that is always a great way of kind of deciding like, is your model gonna scale? Is someone doing it to a scale that you want to be? And there are agencies out there that are doing it well beyond where we're doing it, sort of revenues of 500 million, which we're unfortunately not at yet, but huge teams, global um activations, that type of thing. So I can see that sort of as a sort of like beacon of like North Star of like where do we where do we want to be? And then that also comes down to where do I where do I want us to be as well. And I think is always a case of like you need to make a decision on what do you want for your agency, what do you want for your life. It might not be right, there's the biggest agency out there is doing this, therefore we have to be the biggest agency out there doing that, and we have to compete with them, and we need to get there. You might be very happy delivering on whatever level you might want to be on. So I think that's that's always a big thing, but it shows that scalability is possible and you know it, and you know it's there. And some people look at that as like a oh well, it means it's a saturated market. And I just always look at that as it means like it's showcasing that it's possible. Do you know what I mean? It's not. Doesn't mean you can't do it. It means someone else has done it. Therefore, there is, in essence, a bit of a roadmap that it's it can be done. You might go in a tiff totally different route to get there. You might get halfway there and decide, I'm really happy here, I'm gonna stay here. You might go all the way, you might go further, but that it showcases that that's possible. So the scalability is definitely there. Um and how you do it, and like trying to be streamlined is also just part of kind of the model because like the less streamlined you are, the more you have to charge your clients, really, because you're paying for loads of overheads and all of these, and you you try and get people involved in campaigns that don't necessarily need to be involved, and you're putting a creative director on a on a job that doesn't actually turn up and doesn't do anything on the job. So it's about being mindful of not getting too big that we have to then work with clients in a different way, in a way that we don't want to, just because like we were trying to get to this size of company, so therefore we have to model what they did exactly. We can do things in a different way, and we can it might take us longer to get there, we might get there quicker, but it needs to be true to what the agency wants to do, and as a founder, what you want out of your life and how you see things differently. And I think one of the big things is I'm really happy with is that I actually worked in this industry before I started a company. Some people, and especially nowadays, when sometimes they watch things like this, they listen to podcasts, they're like, Oh, I've got a I'm 22, I need to go start my own business and I need to be get on that entrepreneur journey. And I'm like, well, you can, or you can get paid and learn and not worry about your company failing, and not worry about have you done your VAT return? And you can learn the industry, you can learn what works, you can see what you like, what you don't like, and you can build out a network, you can meet people. Like I've lived in Dubai for two years, working out there, I've been to places around the world, like and going through tragedies at the moment, like Lebanon and Beirut, and I've been to Nepal, like Kathmandu, and all of these things. Which, if I'd started a company and not had some of those experiences, the company now wouldn't necessarily be as strong because I wouldn't have those experiences to rely on and that expertise to be like, right, I know we can do this, I know this is going to cost that much, I know the people that we need to speak to. If I speak to this person, they'll be able to do this thing and I can connect that dot with this dot. Like that comes from being in the industry.

SPEAKER_00 47:00

I agree. I always talk about that concept of the we all hear comparison is the thief of joy, and we compare like one agency to another agency, their growth in three years versus our growth in three years, for example, and disregard the 10 years prior that they had in experience. They got them to that point. I grew my agency very quickly, but I not don't hide the fact I had three years of cold sales experience, cold calling 200 companies a day, going door to door. That's what allowed me to sign up loads of clients really quickly in the early stages, and and that's not something to be discounted at all. Like getting paid to work in an industry first to then move into it. But we are in a space now that every 16-year-old guy and girl who watches Instagram reels sees you know you're what you're behind, and this is what is possible, and there's a there's a case study for every person at every age who's achieved some level of success in any industry.

SPEAKER_01 47:53

Yeah, there is, and I think it's it's great in one way, and it it's it can be harmful in another way. It depends on again, it depends on how you look at it and and your point around comparison and looking at these agencies and thinking like, oh, it's a saturated market because these huge agencies exist. Actually, it showcases that that I can do that, and like nobody's definitely can get there. Um, and and but some people take it sometimes as a negative and it makes them feel like, why am I not already there? And and like especially for younger people being on social media, seeing all these reels and all these people that have like started that, it's it only becomes a highlight after a certain point, and you don't post all of the bits to get to that. And I wish there was more, there was more of that, but it's it's also it's it's difficult as well because like even take this for example. Me being on this podcast only happens because my social media and the business has got to a certain point, so but you wouldn't, and that's no like anything against the podcast. It's like, how would you know that I exist until it gets to that point? So we only know Stephen Bartlett exists because he's at a certain point. You don't know about that person until they get to the point. So it's a bit like that iceberg thing, like there's all of this thing that's happened, but you only really see this top part because they started being on podcasts because they've been on another podcast, which it it kind of snowballs and they've got this many followers, which snowballs to getting more followers. Whereas there's a lot of people sort of like in that iceberg phase of kind of doing all the three years cold calling like you did, that you didn't have a huge following during that time because people didn't want to hear about the fact that you were doing three years cold calling. It wasn't as exciting and sexy, it's like as starting and being a founder and and all of those things, and even that title of like founder and all of those, and entrepreneur and all these things, like it it draws people in, so it's really difficult to kind of see behind the scenes of getting to that point because no one really wants to no one explores that, and there isn't like a podcast that finds people that are on the first day of their journey, and like, do you know what I mean? Like the first day podcast, like, and maybe that should exist, like finding people that have literally the first month into founding a business, like having that conversation with them and like what's that like? It usually takes time for the business to grow, for a personal brand to grow, for all these things. So then when you see that as a 16-year-old, you're just like, Well, they must have just always had this thing, and like they must have always been there, but doesn't show like like no one was asking me to be on a podcast when I was working in a company for four years where I literally hated it and my boss was the worst person ever. Like, no one no one cared about that point, and that's fine. I'm like, I I wouldn't expect them to, but it makes it difficult for people looking in to that world, especially when you're young, going like, Oh, I'll never get to where Stephen Bartlett is, because like whatever, whatever. And he and I'm using him him as an example, and he does talk about that journey, but it's it's kind of hard to talk about when we cherry pick, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:25

We cherry pick the the to we have to admit it, like personal brand. We we cherry pick the parts of the story that will have we perceive to have the biggest impact, but there's all those little micro failures and struggles every night, every day, those little things. But how can you document that? And that's a difficult. I think the closest person to who's trying to achieve that is probably Simon Squibb at the moment. Yeah, and it's probably the closest way.

SPEAKER_01 51:50

And but yeah, but to your point though, like how do you document all of that? Like, how do you document all of the like the voice notes to your friend where you're like, oh my god, like this is the worst thing, like this is a struggle, like all of these the doubts and all of those bits, and and yeah, even me, like like the big companies show me a roadmap of where I want to go, but like I'd be lying to say that I never think like, am I gonna make it? Do you know what I mean? Like, yes, yeah, there's a roadmap, but there is still doubt and there's still fear, and there's still um, is is it gonna make it to next year? Do you know what I mean? And it's like you've got to um you've got to think about the sort of end goal while you're living in the moment as well, and sort of like the moment is it's it's this weird um Goggins thing um that he says he was like he was thinking about running 300 miles, but you couldn't even run one mile yet. And it's like that idea of like you've got to think about like what are you trying to get to, even if you're so far away from that, and so like, but how do you document that part? How do you document all of the fears and the doubts and all of those bits unless and in the strange way, unless you turn your life into being a documentation of it rather than living it? Like, if I was to like document every element, that would be that like where would I find time to do the other parts of my life? Yeah, do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 53:22

And it's a miserable existence to never try to go down the full. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 53:26

Yeah, so it's it's it's kind of like the there's no real win, and you've got everyone's just got to do it to the best of their abilities. I post um on LinkedIn, I I post stories of like um big honest stories. I post stuff about like what's happening in the industry. I don't, it's not just a constant, like this is me, this is my my vulnerable side, it's not a constant, this is the industry, and it's all shiny and brilliant, this is the work that we've done, it's all shiny. It's not all of those, it's a it's a mix, and that's kind of like that's life. Do you know what I mean? It's not always all down, it's not always all up, and you kind of need to just show parts of it when you can. Um, and there are people out there that literally like their life has become documenting that that part of their life, but your businesses need to have got to a certain point to allow you the freedom to do that. So, someone like a Gary V, his businesses have got him to the point where he can document more of his life and record more and do those things because he's got a team that allows him to do that. Same Bartlett and Squib and another example, like these people are at a certain point, so again, they didn't start documenting at that point because they had to be doing the thing, and you can't be spending all of your time and it gets back to the clubhouse. You can't spend all of your time on clubhouse while you're trying to build a business because your life becomes dedicated to posting and clubhouse and recording videos and all that. It needs there needs to be a balance. Um, but it's sometimes it's about like how do you talk about how do you get to the point and you talk about those things, and I think sometimes there are some people that I think preach a little bit around like oh, it's not as amazing at the top of the mountain as you think it is, and I think that is also quite a negative. I think like, oh, I had more fun when I was eating pizza and um and I was living in a student bedsit. Now I'm a multi-multi-millionaire. Well, if it's true, you can give your money away. You don't need to hold on to all of your money if you really want to go back to living in the the pizza and the bedsit, but you're never ever gonna do that. So saying that you were so much happier and you love this sign of life when you're not willing to go back to it, I think is a little bit disingenuous. And I think that again is like going back to that, it it creates this kind of weird sort of like toxic feeling for people that are watching that of like, oh well, you can say that because you've got money and I'm not happy, I'm not happy here. And you try you the the person saying it to try and make the person feel better, but it's a little bit patronizing, it's a little bit like going, like, yeah, no, I I don't want to be there, but like it's you you should be happy while you're there because I was happy when I was there, like, and I think like they we live in a society where having a successful business or having a successful career or whatever it might be is beneficial and it is it's beneficial to your life, it allows you opportunities, it means you don't need to worry about those things. And I've lived a life where you do where I have worried about like where's the money gonna come from? Are we gonna be able to stay in this home? Are we gonna be able to do this and all of that? And like the problems that causes, and like the those worries, like being put to the side, it allows you to worry about other things, and it allows you to think about like existential crisis of like where am I going in life? But it's way better than worrying about what you're gonna eat. Um, so I and I think sometimes like it's about how that's showcased on on socials.

SPEAKER_00 57:25

There's always a bigger problem. There was another thing to worry about. I think now more than I wouldn't say now more than ever, but but as a kind of internationally, probably now more than ever, outside of world wars. Yeah. But um, but I think in the in the world that we live in with AR right now, you raised quite an interesting point that sometimes you have this accidental thought of like, am I even going to get there? And I think us all entrepreneurs have that. I think you have this irrational fear, no matter how well you're doing. And I would like to believe there is a certain point in which that goes. I would like to believe that it's the case, but I haven't experienced it yet. And the rational fear of no matter how well I'm doing, I could lose this all tomorrow. Well, I'm not losing it all tomorrow, it's not happening, but that's how it feels. It's like I'm gonna lose it all and have to stay there. And I think that's somewhat amplified in the past, I would even say six months, in in like what has felt like this massive insurgence of just technology advancements across AI. Have you felt that in yourself? And do you feel somewhat protected, like you're in a bubble because you are in the physical realm in what you do, versus you know, the digital agencies that, you know, on one hand, are now more productive and producing better work than ever. On the other hand, thinking, where does this go?

SPEAKER_01 58:42

Yeah. And yeah, that we I do feel a bit protected by the fact that we are in the physical world. Um and it was COVID and like that that sort of made me double down on the idea of like the physical world and being in person because everybody was sort of driving towards this digital, and there was sort of like a reaction, and you could see that people just didn't want this, and I knew at the time I was like, I don't want this, and now you've got AI, which is doing it's it's exponential on terms of like the speed that it's like trying to force humanity into this sort of digital space, and it's like no one's really asking us if we want this, no one's really kind of saying, like, do people want all of this AI? Do people want I don't think they do?

SPEAKER_00 59:41

No, I yeah, I use it to make money every day, and I don't think I want it in my like why do it have to be born at this time history.

SPEAKER_01 59:49

100% and but it's that, and it's like, and there's all of these these things, and I think that that's what that's kind of like what I think about all the time, like especially in the advertising world, a lot of these things have been done in the ability to reach more people, and that is sort of like make things cheaper, but reach more people. But what's actually happening, and what has happened, is with all the technology advancements, so you go from like TV, then you go digital, then you go social, and now we're in AI. All that's really happened is brands have had to spend more and more to capture people's attentions because at every single level they're losing people's attention. So TV was quite captive originally because people would watch and you'd have adverts and you'd kind of couldn't be bothered getting up until your show started again, and you couldn't pause and you couldn't fast forward. So you would you'd usually watch the adverts, and the adverts were generally quite sort of you were getting real like film directors to come in and make adverts that had stories, so you'd you'd sometimes watch, but then you got the ability to pause TV and fast forward TV, so you would pause, go do something, fast forward past the adverts, and so you'd you'd skip a lot of them, then you get digital, and then that's sort of like cheaper, and that's been forced. But no one said, like, do you want to see this advert in this place? It's just like someone somewhere went, Oh, this is a cheaper way to like get this to people. Social, same thing. And now we're getting to the point where people are like, I can pay to block this, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna do that then. Like Netflix, I can pay to not see adverts, I'm gonna do that. YouTube, I'm gonna pay to not see them, Spotify. I'm gonna pay to not see them. People are making the choice to avoid those adverts that originally were done in a way from like the advertising world, the TV world. All of these people were done to make money for them. And it was like, we don't really care if the consumer wants it, we're just gonna do this because this is a cheaper model. And now you've got AI, and that just like shoots what all of these levels that's been happening since the 60s with TV, and like that shoots that just like skyrockets it in terms of like we can make cheap content, we can get it out all the time, we can you can just be all the time ads, you could just watch ads all of that, but no one's ever said, like, do you do you want this? Like, no, and like the answer is usually no, because people are willing to pay not to see it. Though they they will block ads, they will pay for ad blockers, they will do all of this stuff not to see the ads. So brands are paying more and more and more money to capture people's attentions from mediums that used that were originally designed to save these brands money by able to reach more and more people. So now they're like, well, it's not working. So what should we do? Should we do more of it? Oh, yeah, yeah, let's do more of it. Well, AI will keep make it cheaper, but but you're gonna have to like hire more people to make all this AI content because you're just gonna have to make so much of it because the reaction to it from the consumer that you're trying to reach is comment, AI slop, not interested, unfollowed, don't want to see this AI stuff. That's what you're now getting from the AI stuff. So for us, and I said this earlier, we're a conscious choice of I want to go to that. I am willing to pay, even if it's just transport, I'm willing to pay TFL to get to this event. Whereas AI doesn't, isn't gonna do that. AI is gonna sort of like just peep get people to double down on the actually, I'm just gonna I can't be bothered seeing all of these AI ads, I'm just gonna turn off my my Instagram. Like I'm I can't I don't want to see it. So it's actually leaning more towards do you know what? I'm gonna put the phone down. And you've seen those in stats, like people are turning off, and like Gen Z are turning away from social media and and and logging out because it's just they are becoming like just ad. Do you know what I mean? They are just ads now. So for us, and in terms of that, AI does help us in certain aspects, it helps us write a deck, it helps us with some of the um the design elements on the back end, just to kind of like give an idea of what this might look like in real life, but we still have to bring it to life, we still have to make that happen, and people, I believe, are still gonna choose to go out and and be part of that, and we're never gonna get to the ready player one where everyone sits in their goggles and doesn't leave their home. I don't think we're gonna and I really hope we don't get to that, and like just as a society, like there are people that have gone down that route, and you are seeing like the negative impacts of people that feel disconnected, and being in person is a is a way to kind of move away from that. And I think I look at it that brands have the ability to do that, and I think it benefits in a way the idea is that an ad benefits the company. So, like a TV ad benefits the company because you see that, you then go buy the product. An event benefits both parties because you get the experience of that, and you might go buy the product, you might not in the same way as you saw the ad, you might buy it, you might not. But you've had that experience and that still sits with you as like I've had that experience, and that as something that the brand has given to me. Usually it's for free. I'm saying people pay to go to most of these events that we put on are free for people to attend. So that is a connection that you that you're getting, and it's like it feels more of a 50 50 split. Instead of like what AI is, which now feels even less of a 50-50 split because, like, before people were watching ads and thinking, well, at least the actors got paid, like the camera crew got paid, like all of these people were paid to make this thing. Now they're looking at it and going, like, one person maybe made this in a room for a brand that has millions, multiple billions, some of these, and McDonald's made an AI ad and got absolutely destroyed for it because it's like your company has the money to go make this ad if you want to make this ad, making it in AI and stripping the actors and the actresses and all of these people from that, and the the venues from what they would have made, the lighting people, the sound guy, the the film crew, all of these people from their money. When you're a multi-billion pound global enterprise, doesn't it doesn't feel 50-50.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:02

Do you think that's the product though of the transitional phase in society? Because when it just becomes the norm, then the I think there will always be a divide. There's going to be a very strong divide between the two. But I think the the almost aggression against, hey, you know, McDonald's shouldn't do that and so on, which you can see as a kind of a transition, but maybe three, five years from now, people will just accept. And then you won't be able to tell the diff- I mean I personally believe the ad platforms will enforce at the moment it benefits them too much not to enforce anything. But I believe there's going to be some kind of AI tag on every single ad. It'll be it has it will have to be determined over a day or not. I can't see any other way. But the it's good enough now on some models to be able to produce ads that people genuinely-the average person genuinely can't tell. And we're at a place you look on Instagram reels, that any any remotely shocking Instagram reel that is real is like AI, AI, AI. I remember when this video was posted ten years ago, you know. And so I think that's it's an interesting place to be.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:08

But but to that point, like what do you trust? What do you uh people are saying now that things are real are AI. So anything that looks shocking is instantly deemed as AI. Anything that looks just too good to be true is just is AI, whatever that might be. Whether it's and I get that sometimes when I post like real activations and it just looks amazing. People will be like, that's AI. And I'm like, no, no, this actually happened in this place. It's a it's a real building, it's a real venue. Like, people were there, like, here's a picture of the people, like they're real people. Um, because it's too good to be true, therefore it's AI. But so then it becomes like, well, what can you trust? And the only thing you can really trust is the thing that you saw in real life with your own eyes, and that you could touch and that you could feel, and you could smell, and you could hear, and you could be part of. So, in terms of that question of like, what do I feel like we're in a bit of a bubble? If anything, I feel like not only we're in a bubble, but the outside world is forcing our bubble to get really, really big. And it's actually like because the question becomes like, well, what can you trust? Well, I was there, so I can trust it because I went to the I went to that event and I posted it, and it's me talking, and like the it's very clear that this was a live thing that I was part of, and it's it's clearly not AI. Whereas we're going down a route, like that's the only thing you can't, the only thing you will be ever be able to trust is things that you saw with with your own eyes.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:46

I think you're probably probably in at least in the long term, because I think in the short term, AI commercially exceptional for every digital agency out there. There's no doubt about it. But in the long term, you're probably in the safest vehicle as far as agent two model is concerned.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:04

I like to think so. I like to think so. Um well, I think, yeah, and I like this is the other thing about like when I started Nobody's Cafe, I saw the market growing. I've always seen the market grow. And I've always been like part of this industry and been like, this is gonna get bigger. And I've and I've and I've seen that happen year after year, and it and like the projected numbers in the next five years are massive, massive, massive growth. And I think that's again, I think the growth is gonna be is gonna shock the the stats. I think it's gonna go way beyond what people think it's gonna go to. Um but where the industry is, it's actually still quite low down in terms of like the spend of business of businesses and branding. Like, and to your point, of like, I'm still explaining what it is. I remember when I started the company and my dad thought it was a made-up word, and I was like, Dad, like I've worked in this industry for like 15, 10, 15 years at this point. And he's like, Yeah, I know, but like I'd never really heard of the word, so I just thought it was made up. All right, thanks. Great. Well, your son's just started a business in it, so congrats. Um, so but now it's becoming it's becoming more commonplace. People like understand it. It's become becoming part of like when a brand is thinking about like what do we need to do, brand experience is part of that model. Whereas before it used to be like, oh, we've got some money left over, let's do this cherry on top activation. It's becoming like, no, we've got a we're siphoning off some of our budget now to be part of that from the very start. And I think that will grow, and you'll get some brands that look at it like events are the first thing and brand experiences the first thing, and then everything we do shoots off the back of that. So we will make all of our social content from the events that we do. Okay, so we can take people places and we can do that. So that's an event, and we're gonna all of our photo shoots will be around the events that we've done. Cool. Well, so the event is the first thing, and that's really important. Then we need to bring in the the film crew, and we need to bring in that, like also the content that's made around experiences at the moment is a little bit weak in the sense that we are making sort of case study videos, we're not making narrative-driven videos, but there is the ability to do that within an experience, and like and I always say, like, with every experience, there's there's so many stories to be told. Like, even if you just look at this today, and us being here right now, you came from somewhere, you traveled from somewhere, you got ready, you chose what you were gonna wear, you probably might have thought about it last night, what you were doing, what time you got up, brushing you all of these things, and all of these parts of that, and the people you might have seen on your journey. And while I was walking here, I bumped into someone I know, and he's shouting from across the street, how you doing, and all of this stuff. Like, all of these things are stories, and like we don't really tell those, we don't really tell that narrative behind the experience, and like what brands can do is kind of like create stories and narratives off the back of the experiences they're putting on. So I'll use something like a Red Bull, like the getting up in the morning, the getting ready, the getting to the experience, all of the people that you meet, all of the conversations you have, all of that, and technology in terms of filming and all of those bits is getting to the point where you can just have a camera on you and you can make kind of like a 4K level video and an ad to that point that's centered around the experience. Now, you give that to 10 people that are going to this event, you've got 10 totally different points of view, totally different narratives, all centered around one brand, all centered around an experience. And suddenly it's like I'm watching like 10 different shows on 10 different stories and 10 different like things, all based on one element. And like, look at a show like um skins, like used to do bits like that where they were all going to something and you'd see it from different points of view. Experiences can make content like that, experiences can like drive and amplify and make those stories and bits like that. So, in terms of like the industry and the ability of growth, it's about brands seeing potential of like what can be spent and where, because like we generally don't get the ad budget that's gone to someone else, we'll get the event budget, but the ad budget has gone somewhere, and we're not necessarily put in the conversation of what should we do as a full strategy for this launch or for the brand. But when we are in those conversations, there's ways of kind of going, right? Well, the billboards are gonna drive towards this big experience that you're gonna do, and then the ads are gonna be based around this, and there's gonna be a narrative, and we're gonna turn it into like and you've seen these like social TV shows that are like each have their own like driven narrative, all of these things like we're not in those conversations, but eventually we will be, and there's the ability to grow and be in those conversations, and it doesn't take many brands to make that shift before other brands want to make that shift, they just kind of need to see which is the first brand that kind of goes, actually, we're gonna speak to our brand experience agency before we speak to our traditional performance marketing, and all we're gonna speak to them first and see how we should use the money, and they're gonna pitch and come up with this full idea, and we go with that, and then another brand will say, Oh wow, and then it grows from there. So, like not only like are we in a market that like is is healthy and is strong, and I don't think like to be a to be a big player, you don't need the biggest slice of the pie, but the pie's getting bigger, so for nobody's cafe to be a success, I need to I need even less of a pie because like the pie just keeps on getting bigger and bigger and bigger. So I don't know what will happen with TV advertising and where that will go in in the coming years, what will happen with social and all of that, but the brands will generally still have the same amount of money to to spend, and if they're not spending it in one place, they will still spend it somewhere else, and that mean might mean more events, more experiences, and all of those things. So you're right. I think in the short term with AI, it's one of those things that brands are always going to explore because it's very easy to explore. It's very easy for McDonald's to make that AI advert, so they're gonna do it, see what happens. The response will be negative, but they might they might try it again, and then eventually it might become it might become the norm. But I think there's also a growing apathy of just like all of it. So I think it might become the norm, but that doesn't mean you like the norm. It might be like, oh yeah, all AI adverts are uh AI now, so yeah, that's just it. Doesn't mean that it doesn't mean you like it, doesn't mean you respond to it, doesn't mean you remember it, doesn't mean it makes you go out and buy. But that trickle down effect takes time as well. Like I think we're all like all brands, like I think everyone is too focused on the immediate and they don't think about the long term. They're too focused on like what's the quarterly report, right? But they're not focused on what's the long term, and I think Nike is a bit of a example of that, and we're it's just where we are in the industry and some of the things that didn't used to get reported. Like when I was growing up, I didn't I had no idea what Nike's quarterly numbers were. I didn't go onto a website like Hypebeast and someone say, like, Nike's quarterly numbers aren't as where they used to be. Like, I didn't care, like I like the shoes or I don't like the shoes, I don't care whether they're like doing well in this in the stock market or not. It was it wasn't a thing. That's now reported. Burberry's numbers are on business of fashion and and reported in the news, and it's like, do you like the product or do you not like the product? But like now brands are thinking about like, well, I don't want to be the CMO that got the quarterly report that ended up on BBC News saying that Burberry is down 10% this quarter, so they're kind of like not taking the risk that they used to take, and they're being a they're being a bit safe. So I think eventually that will peter out as well. And there are some brands that I think I think Nike, for example, is actually just looking long term. They're like, yeah, we might be we might be losing numbers now, but like long term, what are we gonna do to kind of bring people back rather than just trying to do like flash in the pan moments? What's that kind of what's that ability? So there will be people that jump on AI because short term they're like, we just need to get loads of content out and we need to reach people, but in the long term, is that gonna mean that their brand in the next 10, 20, 15 years is is is there? You don't know, but you look at the brands that have had that longevity and they have had all of that ability, it is that long-term thinking that's allowed them to do that. It's been very true to themselves and not necessarily trying to jump on things, but instead trying to impact the market in a way that hasn't felt like, oh, we're just jumping on a bandwagon because it's cheap and easy. Like if you look at Apple's 1984 video that they did for one of the Super Bowls, that wasn't cheap and easy, but it shifted how TV advertising would be, and like some of the stuff now is shifting towards cheap and easy. But I don't know if all of those brands will will last that long.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:28

It's a difficult thing to predict, like comparing comparing, like we take so much lessons from the past, but really how can we compare what's gonna happen with the rate of acceleration to to what's happened in the past? It's a it's a very hard thing to get right, but it's gonna be interesting, that's for sure. But you give me some ideas actually from even just from like much, much smaller, even direct-to-consumer brands, for example, that we work with, the whole idea that as society we are gonna want to be more in person and want to see that physical experience, things that we can believe in and so on. Like we create direct responses, uh direct response ads all day, every day, but it's normally still at the the surface level of the founder or maybe an individual consumer and user. But I I really like the idea of everyday brands and maybe even local businesses hosting events, creating experiences, and then turning and creating direct response marketing off the back of that. Because there's a reason why those brands do direct response. They need the money. They're not and they don't have the luxury of a company like Red Bull that can splash cash and and and not do that. But I think there is there's probably a blending of them worlds there. And I think one good afternoon with a good ideation session, a a smaller brand in a local business could think about how they could adopt a strategy, an experiential strategy to their direct response marketing. And I think it would have a really great impact because no one's doing it.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:53

Yeah, a hundred percent. And like w we use Red Bulls and that as some of the examples because everybody knows the name, so it's very easy to sort of like explain that. But we do also work with more startup direct-to-consumer brands as well, and some of their and they've they've had a they've had a bit of growth, they're not necessarily in in their first in their first sort of six months a year, but it's not always huge, huge budgets to put to put on an event. And I think I do want to kind of break that sort of like mindset of some of these D um DTC brands have and some local businesses have that they think, oh wow, I need like to spend 300,000, 500,000 on an event to do an event. They they they don't, and I think there are small things that they can do, and it is building that community that will will drive them further. Like a a DTC brand can just do a walk. Bring the founder and go for a walk in a in a local park with with the community that they've amassed on um on socials, and just be like, I'm gonna be here, we're gonna go for a walk, get a chance to meet, get a chance to meet other people that are buying the product and get like it doesn't doesn't cost doesn't cost too much. Do you know what I mean? It's that but it is that driver to be in person, and it's sometimes like those things and that sort of thinking that grows into being like the bigger events and and the importance of the bigger events, like and using a big brand as an example of that. Like Nike, Phil Knight used to turn up to track meets with the shoes and show people the shoes and get them to put them on and get them to run around, and and that's how Nike started was with experiential marketing, that's what it was. And now Nike is one of the biggest experiential marketers on the planet because the brand was founded on that. Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs starting Apple used to go to computer meets and show them the Apple that they'd first created and got people to test it and blah blah blah. And now Apple is one of the biggest experiential companies on the planet. So, like these small brands don't need to necessarily think like, oh god, I need to spend, and it goes back to the point of comparison is the fever joy. You're comparing Nike now and looking and being like, oh, I can't do those type of big events, but like compare to what Nike was when it started, and that was Phil Knight, the founder, going to track meets, talking to people about the product, creating a community, getting people to wear the t-shirts that they'd made in the back of one of the offices as more branding. Like all of these like small things that were done cre created these companies that we now see. And I think we always kind of like look at and it and it again, going back to what we were saying about founders and like how we're looking at the top of the iceberg without actually looking right at the start and where it started. You look at something, oh, this is where it is. And we get those, we we literally get those comments of like, oh, we don't have Nike's budget. And I was like, Well, Nike didn't always have Nike's budget. That's not how Nike started. Red Bull didn't start with a billion-pound business, like that's not where they started. They started by getting people to try the product, they started by going to smaller events and and getting people to try what they had and building that initial community that were loyal to the product, then that built, and then they built on top of that. And I think these smaller brands, like I said, we did stuff with tonic health. Um, who has a guy called Sunner, who's the the founder that's got a big sort of profile on socials. We did an event for them in Shoreditch at the start of February, bringing their community together, pulling all of that together. Um, we did something with Hunter and Gather. Um, again, founder led, they've grown a portfolio, um, a profile, personal brands and stuff like that. So, like those sort of more D2C sort of growing brands have such success when they put on events. Like, it's it's always the response that we get, the feedback that we get from these things is always really positive. The comments, like I said, like they're on their social channels, they're getting 10 times the response to a post based on an in-person event, even with the people that weren't there. So it's about looking at like how can we be in person? And it doesn't need to cost the world, but it's kind of creating that brand community, people that know you, can trust you, that will be like when they see an advert that someone on the comment says AI, they'll respond, no, it's not, I was actually there, like that type of thing you want to kind of like build up. But that doesn't start when you're at Red Bull's level. It starts when you're at your first year, and it's that thinking that builds and the community that builds, and then people know you and believe in you for doing that thing rather than just being like, Yeah, we've never done an event, we're gonna just get people to just turn up because they're loyal to loyal to what like they like your product and they might have bought your product, but they don't you haven't necessarily captured their hearts and minds, but that can start from like going turning up into a park and having a little walk. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:29

It's a mindset shift more than anything. I think we just as digital business owners and you kind of include di most D2C brand owners in that these days that are starting out so commercially minded, it's so about r ROAS and you know, and clicks and CAC and all of these things is what we're obsessed over. To the point where you drive down every metric that doesn't optimize around that, and you forget about those little touches that you can add to a brand that do. Bring your you know your LTV over CAC ratio down a little bit. Actually, in the long term, we'll increase it. And uh I just think it's a really interesting thing for people to sit with. I'd myself have fallen victim to that. We host in-person events, we host masterminds, and and and and I think we create a pretty great experience, but there have definitely been moments of like, do we need that thing? Because it is gonna cost this. But actually, looking back, those things will probably create an even more memorable experience. And so certainly something I'm gonna take from this.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:28

Yeah, definitely. And and and performance marketing works. Like, I can't like but it's it's what happens you could never turn performance marketing off, like, but branding works for free. Do you know what I mean? Like at a certain point, Red Bull could turn the performance marketing off because they'd created such a strong brand, so they don't need to like rely on that sort of element anymore because their brand is so strong, and some people think about it as like, oh well, no, but their brand is so strong, that's why they don't well but they created the brand. So you need to think that long term to like, yeah, we need to create a strong brand, so then these things will work for cheaper because people will see it and be like, Well, I already love I love this, so like now I just know there's a new product which I'm definitely gonna go try because I already love the brand, so it's about finding that balance, and I think in the early years it is harder because like a lot of the performance marketing is like I spend this much, I get this much money back, and that is an easier thing to work with. It's it's so much easier. Like, do you know what I mean? If I could do that and be like, I spend this much money and I know I'm gonna get this these many clients are gonna come back to us, like I'm probably gonna go for it. But over the long term, like creating, and this is and look, this goes to like we're talking about um products, but this goes to like agency owners as well. This goes to like to your point of view, doing your your meetups and and those bits. You are building a brand that people want to be part of, um, whether that's a personal brand or whether that's around the agency, it's creating a bigger world. And I think a lot of agency owners don't really ever look at that. They look at potentially servicing the brands that they work with and creating their brand, but they never really look at like what is the brand that I am creating for my agency and like how does that live? And what do people feel about that when they see that from a B2B level? And that is something that is always on my mind of like, and we've done stuff as well, we've done meetups, we've we've done um talks at like Sow House, and we've done our own little coffee meetup mornings and did birthday parties and all of those things, and it's something that we want to do more of because it's like we want to create something that people want to be part of, like people want to join and and like not just think like, oh, this is just another agency. We want to feel like, oh, actually, this is like a brand in its own right, and like they exist and we want to be part of them. And if we put some merch out, like people will be like, Oh, I want one of those t-shirts, and we've done that, we've got tote bags running around London with people that have got tote bags on all of these little things, like, and it is that thinking that like some founders need to take for their agencies as well. Like, it's not just for the the D to C's and all these people, it's like it's that thinking of like what's the what's the long term of what you're trying to build, and like how are people gonna feel about when they see nobody's cafe, they're gonna think, right, well, this is what I know, and I want to be part of that. And it's also what I've been saying earlier about the suppliers and the other people that want to be part of it. Like, we put a job ad out and we end up getting like 400 like applications of like people being like, Oh, I'm dying to work at your company. I'm like, this for me, I'm just like, what is going on? Like this thing that I just came up with like on my own, and like built like people are like dying to come work at this company, and we we had this um intern that's like messages out of the blue being like, Oh, I came to one of your events, I'd love to come and like do a mum for your company. I'm like like just flattered and like like shocked and all of those things, but that is because we are building more than just an agency, we're trying to build a brand that supports other brands and and delivers for them, and that's that is the focus, but there's also part of like building our own community because I think that's important, and I think a lot of agency founders just don't really think about that literally at all. Like there's some brands and like DCZ that don't think about it, so like the amount of agencies that don't think about it is even is even higher.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:52

It's one of the healthiest things you can do for culture as well, just and it's so energizing as a founder, like coming away from it, like internal events, but yeah, like we know we're talking about external events right now as well, but internal events are just so energizing, it just keeps you going, like makes everyone keeps everybody so alive. I've got some rapid fire questions for you. One brand that you'd love to work with that you haven't already, um uh Fear of God.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:19

So it's a fashion brand owned by Jerry Lorenzo.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:22

Nice. Most overrated trend in marketing right now.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:25

The AI.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:27

One skill every agency owner needs.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:31

Resilience.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:33

Best book or podcast that shaped how you think.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:36

Um shoe dog, Phil Knight.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:39

Nice. And one thing people would be surprised to learn about you.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:45

Um, that is a that is a tough one. Um my height is usually one of them because people see me online, they don't know that I'm 6'7. So that is probably one of the Yeah, I know. You can get that? Yeah, I've I have been getting that. So that is another.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:00

That's not gonna be the first time I have to edit something out of my own podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:04

That is another trend I don't like. The 6'7 trend. That is not that's not been kind to me. It's not an idea. Yeah, David, absolute pleasure. Yeah, no, it's been great, been great chatting. Thank you for having me. Cool, man.