SPEAKER_00 0:00

So you went from 22 staff when you joined the business to now 665 at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 0:05

I think when I joined, it was doing just under a million turnover and we're not making any profit when I was over six million turnover.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

You've achieved over 20,000 top three Google rankings for your clients, and what's your secret to being able to achieve that? If you've got a process to improve that it's repeatable, like you give yourself the best chance of getting traction with it. How soon was it after the launch of ChatGPT that you looked at that and thought this is going to make a big impact on that?

SPEAKER_01 0:31

ChatGPT's probably got about a billion users across the world. Google, it gets 80 billion visits a month to its platform. If people think ChatGPT is going to kill Google, it's not it is a channel and you should try and do visitable.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

How do you think the general agency market is going to evolve in the next five years? I think you you have to adopt it or you're not going to be around really. So if someone was looking to start an agency, like what advice would you give to that person to make sure they don't fall under the trap of being generic? I would say if you start an agency. Ben, welcome to Agency Giants. So you joined the SEO Works over 10 years ago now. Yeah. And you've since gone through a full employee ownership, which I want to unpack today. But I'm curious because we very often have guests on the podcast, or mainly have guests on the podcast, who are agency founders, and you joined the business as a managing director.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

What's it like joining an existing agency rather than starting it from the ground up?

SPEAKER_01 1:36

Um I suppose, I mean, uh to give context, when I joined uh back in 2016, um, the business uh it'd been going on for a good few years, um, and it really started as a real sp specialist SEO agency, uh, just targeting uh sort of local companies really, and it kind of bummed along. Um, and when I joined, it was doing just under a million turnover and but not making any profit. Um, so my remit really was to come in and and to try and scale the agency, um, which we managed with now sort of over six million turnover. Um, we've gone from about 22 staff to 60 65 plus. Um, but yeah, really coming into a business when you haven't been there from the start, the first thing was was trying to gain trust. Um, and I think that the because it it was small when I joined, 22 people, you could kind of do that. So one of the first things I did was I literally sat down with every single person in the business and just had a chat with them for you know half an hour, um, just to get their feelings, get their thoughts on where the business was at, what was good, what was bad, um, how things could be improved, all that kind of stuff. And really just to try and create a connection with everyone in there. Um, so that that first phase of the business was really about listening and establishing myself as I'm gonna be here to kind of support you and your ambitions, and this is what we want to do, and really set a vision for growth throughout the company. Um, so I didn't really feel it as being too challenging, really. Um, the other really good thing about when I joined was that the founder was very much um you know uh entrepreneurial, but he was like, Oh, it's too big, it's too big, even at 22 staff, you know. I just it's too much for me, I just want to give it over to you and and and let you run with it, sort of thing. So, really I had that remit to do what I wanted to do without anyone else or you know above me interfering, really. And and there was a you know, there's a good period probably of a year where I kind of downloaded all the founders' stuff, the stuff that wasn't in sheets and any anywhere into the business. Um, and and then he could really step back, and really from that point on it was touch points with them just to keep them up to date with stuff. So, yeah, I think yeah, joining the business is always a bit different, especially when you're becoming the leader, but it's important like to just establish that trust and connection with people um and and try and sort of talk about the the vision and and and and the journey we wanted we wanted to go on.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

So, did you re-establish the the vision, the mission, the values of the company? Did you come in and reaffirm those, or did you kind of take over what was already there and and and try and adapt what existed?

SPEAKER_01 4:22

I think the value, I mean the value it was quite interesting because a lot of companies don't have established values. Um, but the SEWX did, and they were really strong. Um, so I didn't mess with that, but I did build out a vision um and a mission and start to set strategic objectives so you you sort of had right, this is what we want to kind of achieve this year, and it's only with continual, gradual evolution do you start to see things compound? Um, so yeah, we had a bit of a distant vision, and then it was much more about right, let's break down what we want to achieve in this year and and how do we go about doing that, and who in the business um is it wants to take that sort of other leadership on and responsibility and help help develop things.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

Nice. When you say that when you joined the business was unprofitable, what were the biggest problems that were causing that unprofitability?

SPEAKER_01 5:13

I think um the the founder wanted growth um and he was investing for growth. Um, and probably the the biggest way he did that was probably by delaying a few payments to HMRC. Um, so yeah, what I and I I didn't really I wasn't aware of that or that the con full picture of it until I joined the business. So really the first yeah once I got in was maybe to delay some of that growth plan and trying to just sort that out first uh in the background so we really had to control costs and make sure every last little thing um was was was was worth the outlay uh and and and get on top of that before we could then focus on growth.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

Presumably when you joined the company, and correct me if I'm wrong, you're incentivized by the growth of the business coming in as an MD.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Yeah, well I I I actually negotiated the ability to have some shares in the business. So I did then become I was a a minor partner in the business, if you like, at that stage.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

Um so there was a you know there was an incentive to and then how do you kind of pave the probably frustration of coming in and then understanding you've got an unpick a lot over a long period of time, but then also this challenging desire of I just want to get this thing to where I know it, where it can get?

SPEAKER_01 6:31

Um I mean I think you you you you would you adapt with it, don't you? You know, you've kind of committed to this, and and you come in and it's maybe not quite what you thought it might be. So you have to be adaptable, and actually, adaptability is one one of the values of the company. Um and we had a um sort of an external sort of support guy, a guy uh called Rich Field who who'd worked in business for a long time, he was a master cutler, he'd run a lot of different businesses, and he was a really good sounding board. And you know, I was I was sort of offloading some of the challenges to him, and and he said, Look, Ben, rarely there is anything in the world that you can't surmount and get over as a problem if you kind of just put your mind to it and set a plan. Um, and yeah, that's what it was about. It was about just changing put changing the view, changing the expectation. Don't get angry about it because it it is what it is, and uh and try and pick a way through it, really.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

I'd like to just backtrack for a minute, just kind of explore like your early career before you got to that point because you were a web designer beforehand, weren't you?

SPEAKER_01 7:37

I joined uh started as a web designer yeah many, many years ago at um a company called PlusNet who were a broadband provider, um, um, and then progressed to leading that team and um and the marketing sort of function within the business. Um so through that, you know, I got I got into you know obviously how websites work, the analytics side, the user journey side, uh thinking about conversions, all that kind of stuff. Very early experimentations with with SEO and PPC in that role, um, and and and and team leadership. And it was it was a it was a great company to work for because um it was all sort of like just go and do it. Um and they gave you opportunity, and it was a bit crazy. There was lots of crazy stuff in there, but you you kind of learn from bad experiences and crazy experiences as well. So some of the things in there I maybe didn't agree, but I used that knowledge to know that when I kind of eventually was a leader, these are the things I probably wouldn't do, and these are the certain things I would take from that experience. Um, then I worked at an agency, so I worked um it's what's now called J Wing, but I was it was it was called something else back then. Um account facing, so account director, so sort of leading with client strategy, client relationships, traveling up and down the country to sort of to to work with clients on on projects, and then I moved into digital health, leading um uh health digital business, um, which I joined as um sort of I became ops director there, so essentially I was reporting into the board of of quite a large um sort of healthcare company there. So all these different experiences kind of added up and and the opportunity came at the SEO works. I actually developed a relationship with the SEO works because they were providing SEO to me as a provider at the healthcare business.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

Interesting. And then was that uh like an advertised position or did they approach you for that individually?

SPEAKER_01 9:38

Yeah, I was um I I've we kind of I just got on with the the owner uh well, they were doing great stuff for us, and we kept on increasing the budgets, and I just got to know him very well, and you know, as you do, you go on entertainment, things like that, and he sort of explained he was he was looking for someone to to to to take the reins, really, and uh you know it was getting too much for him, and you know, it just felt like the right the right opportunity, really.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

Nice. Yeah. What would you say was one of the the biggest early reinventions you had to make in the SEO works?

SPEAKER_01 10:10

I think there was there was certainly um a structural thing, so so coming in, um I quickly found like there was one guy who was just running everything for everyone, um, and that really wasn't going to scale, and he was super stressed out. Um, he's now RMD actually, incredibly loyal to the business and and and and a great guy, but it was it was just being spread too thin. So the first thing we kind of looked at was to try and break that structure a bit uh up into more um manageable pods. You know, really when you're when you're running a team, the optimal level is sort of five to seven, I would say. Like back when I was web designer at Plusnet, then I started to lead the the the web team there. I was managing 11 and I just felt stretched. Um, so you know, your five to seven is an ideal sort of number to really you know have a good connection with people and get them to perform. And so that's what we try. I tried to do to create the concept of pods and make it more um you know uh scalable. So as we grew, we knew you could add pods on to the business for the delivery teams and and rework that. Um the other elements we looked at were trying to broaden what we offered because it was purely SEO and it was purely local. So the first ambition was really to try and focus more nationally, get more presence um nationally, um, rework our uh uh inbound strategy at that point, which was just SEO, uh, which was just localized to really target larger, broader uh national and international phrases, um, and also bring in uh complementary services as well.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

So most of the client acquisition was in the business and presumably still is inbound from SEO rather than any outbound or or any ads?

SPEAKER_01 12:07

Um not now, but when when I when I started it was it was purely SEO uh and networking, you know, local local networking. Um and you know, we've practiced um optimizing the site for years now, um, and I came to the realisation that yeah, we're we're really strong locally, but if we wanted to grow, we needed to flip it and do nationally, and there was a bit of a risk in that, uh, but we managed to do it and we started getting more inbound leads that way. But really, one of my goals joining was was to invest in marketing. Um, you know, a lot of agencies can kind of get by with referrals and a bit of networking, and you'll probably get to let's say a million turnover, but find it hard to scale past that. Um I wanted to practice what we preach. I wanted to invest in our own marketing and broaden uh our inbound and broaden the quality of leads we were getting. Uh, but I couldn't do that at the start because we had this uh financial challenge. So it was only really, I think, around 2020, um, sort of four shares in, we finally had the ability to invest and bring in someone who was dedicated to marketing. You know, before that, it was a bit patchy. You know, I was doing a bit, um we had some someone doing a bit of paid search, but it wasn't really getting much because there wasn't that dedicated focus and probably not enough budget. Um and uh and our brand presence was inconsistent. Um, you know, by bringing in this one person dedicated to marketing the business, which has now grown to a team of two, um, that was that commitment. And from you know, you can really see the the difference in our brand, uh, consistency, presence, um, brand awareness, all that kind of stuff as we've evolved that function and broadened out uh the channels we use to bring leads to us. Um and we also do a bit of outbound, it's cool, called email outbound. Um and then I do what we call warm outbound. So we do do a lot of kind of content marketing, white papers, those kinds of things. Um, and those obviously much higher up in the funnel. Um, but you know, that's an opportunity to phone that person up and have a conversation. Um, it might not lead anywhere, probably won't. Um, might, but it might lead somewhere six, nine, twelve months down the line as you've engaged them and they've been brought into our sort of marketing system, if you like. Um, so yeah, now now our marketing it's multi-layered, it you know, it probably less, probably 40% of leads are now through organic, if you like, and the rest is through other channels.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

And so if we're saying like 60% is coming from other channels, like what is the most effective channel for you guys at the moment?

SPEAKER_01 15:00

The main two ones are are LinkedIn and Paid Search. Um, we're battled with paid search, um, and it only really sort of started to work um as we increased the budgets because you just you know, if you're getting a few leads a month, it's it's hard to sort of have that scale to to justify whether it's working or not. So broad and increasing the budgets and you know, got two two people working on it, you know, each month, it's it's really helped actually become a really good performing channel. And LinkedIn being very consistent for us with leads. We find leads from LinkedIn they they cost a bit more, and they do tend to take a bit longer to convert, but it is uh it's it's a good, great channel for that. And then we've got things like directories, um uh other paid social channels, um and and yeah, and the outbound stuff as well, which and and and then uh uh we're a a patron of the chamber of commerce, so we do sort of regional things, events, and and networking as well, which brings in stuff and speaking, you know, those sorts of things. So you're doing paid LinkedIn as well?

SPEAKER_00 16:16

Yeah, interesting, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

Well, we've got we've got both, so we've got organic, we've managed to build our channel to over 50k on the brand channel, um, organic, so we get really good engagement and reach from that. Um, but we're also building in the individual profiles, so I've got about 14k at the moment, um, and we're trying to get the other leaders in the business to but to build their own channels as well because I mean uh one post from me can often get much more reach than the the brand channel does, um, so it's about using those, and and you know that's that's really just reach and presence, isn't it? Um and and using them, and then obviously the paid side, yeah, we've we've got a uh a nice budget for LinkedIn paid as well.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Nice, yeah. That employee EGC, employee-generated content piece is is something a lot of agencies are focusing on at the moment. Um do you have your team members and and the the management of the company posting themselves and writing their own content, or do you it's the the marketing department aiding with that?

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Yeah, so we've um we we the marketing department drives it, but the individual posts it. So we've we've built a kind of schedule where um you know the you you can sort of reuse things as well. So it's been on the brand channel, but it's still very probably relevant, and that's one opportunity for people to see it. But you if you post it to your network, they may not be connected, they may see it. Maybe it's slightly different take on things, same asset, different sort of angle. Um, so yeah, there's a bit of a schedule where you know that it's this is this is what you're um posting uh this week, um, and then the individual adds their own spin to it. Um, and I I try and post a few times a week, um if if not daily, to really build my profile as well.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

So using like LinkedIn ads, notoriously quite expensive for customer acquisition. Yeah. How has your presumably your ideal customer profile is kind of changed and molded for LinkedIn, or are you targeting the same cli ideal client that you're targeting across market? And in general, like what is the ideal customer profile now?

SPEAKER_01 18:24

So I ideal customer profile is probably um a medium-sized business, um, someone who's obviously invested in marketing and they've probably got a marketing manager in place, so they've they've reached that kind of scale where they they take it seriously, uh, and probably there's someone there running it. Um we do work with smaller businesses as well, you know, with founders, but you you're sort of probably in that you know mid-market, really. Um and yeah, you can I mean you can reach those those people on LinkedIn, you know, you can choose your company size, you can your profile, the the role, all that kind of stuff. Uh so we we can speak to that market.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

Nice. So you went from 22 staff when you joined the business to now say 60 or 80? 60, 65, people in the business. Um, what are your some of your biggest lessons when it comes to hiring teams quite quickly and and and maybe some of the mistakes you've made there as well?

SPEAKER_01 19:21

Yeah, uh hiring um it's one of the biggest skills to get right, I think. Um and earlier on I I was I was involved in every hire, you know, back when we were a bit smaller. Um and I think really for me it's trying to look beyond the skills uh and and try and dig under the the person and the values um and uncover ways, you know, when they've been in a challenging situation, what have they done, how have they reacted? Um, what's their approach to learning, you know? Uh have they got the the the drive and the self-passion to go off and find something and learn about it and not kind of wait to be fed stuff, you know? So you you try and obviously the skill skills are important, but you can build skills if you've got the right attitude. So to try to dig under and think of questions which uncover those sorts of stories is really important, I think, in in the process. Um, and I think you know, we at one point we were hiring really rapidly during that COVID boom period, um, and a lot of the hiring was online. Um, we've recently switched back to hiring in person. I think you just you just get a better judge of someone and a feel for someone when you sat, you know, next to them and and you know, uh rather than over video. Um and we've tried to make the process not just one interview as well, we've tried to introduce a couple of stages to it to really sort of be able to assess that person a bit more effectively and dig into the you know the the the person behind the behind the CV. Um I read that how Google Works book years ago and their their their interviewing process, it's like three, four, five stages. Um, you know, they're speak the interviewing senior leaders and they really take it really seriously about trying to get the right person really in the right fit and yeah, on a kind of smaller scale. We're trying to be a bit more robust in in how we bring people on as well. Because yeah, if you get the right people, it makes things so much easier, really.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

I was at an event on Wednesday evening with uh at Richard Harpin's house. Do you familiar with Richard Richard? He's he sold Home Serve for four billion pounds and a big home services business. And I asked him the very similar question of how did you, when you branched out into the US, build such a massive team? And it was quite interesting because what they did was they hired senior heads first and then actually allowed them to build a department where they needed quite a bit. Quickly. In growing the SEO works, did you build the teams organically and then place heads on top of them like most, or did you approach it from that similar sense that Richard did?

SPEAKER_01 22:13

Our policy was to try to reward people from within who show the um the ability, the skills, the the drive, the you know, the the ability to do stuff. And most of our um heads of department, etc., have progressed through the business. Um, you know, coming in at different levels of roles initially. Um, and you know that that creates a good story internally. It's that you know, there is opportunity, we do believe in you, and that you can progress here. Um, and you know, you're also bringing someone who's already ingrained in the culture and can you know can continue to build that? Um so we our approach is always trying to be to give opportunities to people within the business.

SPEAKER_00 23:03

How do you find the balance and and do you find that the people that are the best operators in the company are are also suitable to be managers and and if not, how are you identifying who is going to be suitable to be that head?

SPEAKER_01 23:18

It that's yeah, that is an interesting thing. You know, the biggest challenge when someone moves from being operational to leading people is is that shift. Um, and we've been we've been very aware of that, so we kind of um focus on what we call our pod leaders um and bring in external training to focus on you know the kind of soft skills you need, um, tools, um, the way to coach rather than tell, all those sorts of skills and techniques. So they have time you know, off-site uh training with someone uh each year to work through those things. Um, so it's sort of like yeah, learn on the job, but we'll also we'll also give you some some dedicated time, tools, techniques to work as a group on on how you can evolve that. Um so it's you know it's it's it they've got the opportunity, but it's also being able to adapt, but giving them the skills to to test those things out and and and evolve and grow really with with within the role. If that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

The the the pod structure thing is quite interesting because it's something that actually comes up in a lot of debate on on the podcast. Uh some people are so for pod structures, others say that it breaks beyond a certain point of scale. And I'm interested to hear your perspective on that and whether you think there are limitations to to pod structure. Maybe just before we do that, could you give us an idea of what consists, like what team members consist of a pod for you?

SPEAKER_01 24:49

Yeah, yeah. So it is mainly across the delivery teams. So within a pod, you'll have a pod leader and anywhere from three to six sort of people in that pod. So the the totality of the pod is never more than seven, really. Um the pod leader is is there for um pastoral care um supporting the the projects within the the pod. Um they also have a couple of clients as well, so they're not completely hands-off, you know, the the the sort of practitioners as well. Um and then uh yeah, they they're reporting to sort of the head of the department, really. Um so yeah, that's how it's structured, and obviously you can then I think there's six pods at the moment. So you can add ones in if you need to.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

And but then in the SEO world specifically, what are then the if there's five or six people inside of a pod, like what are let's say the titles of those people that make it up?

SPEAKER_01 25:47

Yeah, so there's typically a mix of senior, senior account managers or senior SEO account managers, senior uh account managers, um, account execs. So it's a mix of experience within each pod in terms of on hands, a practitioner experience, and then also a pod leader who uh is there to sort of pull them together to to look at the projects overall on on that team, support uh where's needed, and and and yeah, and and one thing we do is obviously we have remote working, flexible working, but each week, at least one day in the week, all that pod needs to be together in person, you know, uh at a desk, just because it helps communication.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

It's interesting because so my presumption is that everyone inside the pod somewhat cross-pollinates in the sense that they all do similar things but at varying different levels of of of seniority, is that correct? Yeah, interesting. Because then let's say in our agency the the pod is made up of in we won't have more than one person that that makes up the same role, so they'll like yeah, a graphic designer, a media buyer, a copywriter, and so on, and so it's like a micro agency team with then an account manager on top. And I think that's at least from my perception of such, is that's the more traditional, and so I that's why I asked in your instance because I suspected that lots of you had lots of team members that have those repeatable, which I then suppose actually solves the problem that agencies have at scale with pod, because in the structure that we have at scale, there's you have pods working in silo, but then there is a disconnect between the uh the various levels of expertise and the the various um vehicles of expertise, so graphic design, media buying, email. Yeah, whereas in your instance they're banded together so they can learn together. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. And then I suppose then just off the back of that, then what do you see as the core benefit of keeping everybody in small group silos? Are they working on they're not collectively working on the same group of accounts, they're working on individual accounts. So I'm just interested what the the core benefits are depending on the size of account.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

You do have teams working on accounts, um, and as much as possible we try and make the that linked to the pod. So you know you've got you know, those there is a bit of cross-pollination across pods, you know, you can't it can't be it's not perfect, but um yeah, uh it we try and keep everything with with it within that pod. And I think the the benefit is it is it's harking back to you know when I had 10-11 people, it you you were just pulled too too too far out, and you're trying to you're trying to create an environment which is supportive and and lets people work and learn. Um and also I think as as a business grows, you kind of, you know, I think once you get past four 40 or 50, really, this concept of one complete set of people, it just becomes too broad and you know intangible, it's just too big, too big for one leader and and you know, or the CEO to define the culture. So as you grow, you've got to identify, right, the people who are who are leaders or the people who are running the teams across the business, and they're kind of even more important than than you as a leader to to help continue to drive the culture and all that kind of stuff. Um, but yeah, if if you scale past a certain size, um with without really without knowing it or not, you start to get tribes. So the the the big what was a small unit of 20-30 people who everyone knew everyone, you know, everyone knew everyone's name, uh, you could have a chat it it gets beyond that and tribes form whether you know it or not. And what we're trying to do is is create those tribes and those, you know, those tribe leaders, if you like, leading that small culture, which then builds to the the bigger picture.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

And as you've grown and as you've got this middle management in, you've gone from managing director to CEO. How would how did that transition uh what did that transition look like and what's the the distinction between those two roles?

SPEAKER_01 30:10

So um I've been CEO for I think nearly four years now, and um and our our ops director was has become the MD, and I think the the distinction for me is is I'm my role is now my external facing, really trying to be the you know the face of the business, speaking on things like this, uh thought leadership, um, you know, doing uh speaking at events, all that kind of stuff, uh and supporting the kind of operational and strategy element of the business. Um but yeah, the MD sort of is is there and we've got real complementary skill sets really. You know, we're we kind of overlap, but um, you know, we we know what we're both good at, and you know that hopefully works.

SPEAKER_00 30:58

Nice. So I want to dive into service um some somewhat and and I'd like to unpack like the impact of AI on the service as well, but just before we we do, just just explore kind of SEO in the in a general sense. Um we spoke off camera and the fact that you have um you've achieved over 20,000 top three Google rankings for your clients and and and arguably more than that over the years. What's your secret to being able to achieve that?

SPEAKER_01 31:25

Um, I suppose there's no great secret, it's just we we've been doing it for so long, we kind of know how to create get results, um, and it evolves, doesn't it? And you've got to adapt to that, and you know, we've got that sort of adaptability within the business to to continue improving. Um and like any any marketing channel, it's nothing's guaranteed, you know. Put an ad in a newspaper, you know, you there's no guarantee you're gonna get any interest from it. Same with SEO, but if you've got a process and it's proven and it's repeatable, then you're giving yourself the best chance of getting traction, really.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

A lot of people say it takes you know six, twelve months to see real results of SEO. Do you think that's accurate?

SPEAKER_01 32:11

Yeah, I would set that expectation, and we try and do, and it's it's increasingly harder, I think, in the market because um that you you do have agencies, smaller agencies just setting wrong expectations, and and obviously clients sometimes come with that expectation of it, it it needs to happen now. So I think you need to position it that ultimately it will take a bit longer, but you you can get you know quick wins as you go along that journey, but really for it to benefit, you need to sort of think consider it an investment and something that will repeat itself as time goes on, really. Um, and you know, that's why we have other services as well, you know. Um, it's much more now about a search universe, so looking more broadly at where people are searching and saying, you know, we can help you be present across all those different places where people are online now, um, and and and thinking more broadly about search as well as as well as AI search.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

Can you give some examples when you say like the the search universe? What do you what are you referring to there?

SPEAKER_01 33:13

I guess um, so that the the days of Google being very simple, very simple interface, you know, type in a search click, go click on the links and off the website and do that a few times. That still happens, but other stuff happens as well. So obviously you've got AI overviews now, they're on over half of queries now. It's probably going to stay about that, I would suspect, because they're more on informational queries than commercial and transactional ones. Um, but so being present in that and re-educating people that it's not just now about a click, it's also about presence. Um, you know, if you're recommended in those AI overviews, someone's becoming aware of you as a brand even before they've clicked. Um, and and that should be part of the consideration now. Um, yeah, people are using AI tools, um, although if you look at the data, it's not quite the you know, the Chat GPT's taking over the world and kill killing Google as you would expect, really. If you look at Google's visits, they've remained pretty consistent over the last 18 months. Um, it's really emerging. It it's they're kind of complementary channels, people are using uh LLMs for for certain things, uh, and they're using them alongside Google. And a lot of research shows that people once they've finished in an LLM, the next port of call is then to go to Google and search stuff, you know, over half of people moved then to search. Um, and then you've got social, you know, people are searching on social and um asking forums, going on Reddit, so there's loads of different ways now people are finding stuff and researching stuff. Um, Google is still the dominant force, don't get us wrong, but the the world is now broader than just Google.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

Do you find that because it's a a slow burn service, that that's a really positive thing for churn and for just retention across the business in general, with let's say in comparison to a paid media agency where clients expect much quicker results and and have those more urgent expectations?

SPEAKER_01 35:21

Well, we do offer paid media as well. You do so the the the paid search team is probably about 20% of the turnover. Um and a lot of clients we bring in we'll we'll do an integrated search strategy for. Um so yeah, you know, you it one can support the other, and especially if you've got someone um looking for results sooner, um, you know, that having a complement of both channels really helps. Um and then I think it comes down to the client really, um, whether they're really bought into it and and they they see it as a medium-term investment. Um, you know, we still have clients who, well, it's nothing's happening, it's month two, and you know, and you still have them conversations, but you know, I think it's about how you set their experts expectations really and and show progress and movement towards results as well in those early days.

SPEAKER_00 36:18

How soon was it after the launch of Chat GPT that you looked at that and and thought this is this is gonna make a big impact on us? And was that initial feeling uh positive or a negative?

SPEAKER_01 36:29

I mean it, yeah, I suppose it was af after the launch, and you could see the the numbers going up and up and up. Um but I want to set context here because you know, even now Chat GPT's probably got about a billion users across the world. Uh Google uh it doesn't reveal its individual users, but it gets 80 billion visits a month to its platform. So if you look at the if you're thinking about as different channels, Google is still dominant. And then if you're thinking about AI surfaces, i.e. AI answers, AI overviews is a much bigger opportunity to get featured um in AI answers than ChatGPT. AI overviews appear on over half of um Google search results, 80 billion visits a month. So you you know your scale is so much more still on Google. But um yeah, no, we we we've we've we've followed Chat GPT very closely, and yeah, it's it's certainly a channel where you need to be visible as well. Um so yeah, we saw it as an opportunity, you know, adaptability, adapting with the search. Um we're one of the first few agencies in the UK to publish case studies and helping our clients get visibility in there, get traffic. Uh we've published our own case study, we worked on our own visibility, um, and you know, recommendations and traffic from ChatGPT's like gone up by sort of two 200%. Uh, we get leads from there, not on the scale of Google still. You know, if people think Chat GPT is going to kill Google, it's not. But it is a channel and you should try and be visible in it.

SPEAKER_00 38:08

How do you optimise or from like a tactical strategy or tactical perspective? How are you optimizing for AI overview versus just LLM search?

SPEAKER_01 38:19

When you say LLM you mean like ChatGPT.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

Yeah, like ChatGPT Claude.

SPEAKER_01 38:22

It's similar, it's it's it's an AI model, it's looking for um answers, it's looking for content which is structured, um, easy to pass, well broken down, has unique insights, uh, has your own sort of processes in it. Um it's maybe uh a lot of comparative stuff is looking at sort of lists and comparisons, if you having comparative queries, and and then it's about the overall brand and the brand presence as well. Um, so it's about getting your your site in order, thinking about it commercially, um, really focusing down on more commercial content uh and and unique content that rather than commodity content, which AI is just gonna answer for you, um, and really showing your expertise and being really specific about it. AI likes specifically. So let's say you're a I don't know, a camper van provider, you know, if you've got something saying we offer camper vans and custom builds, well, that's all right, but if you've got like right, here's uh an off-grid build we did for this camper van with solar panels, it's a VWT6, perfect for the nomad sort of lifestyle. That's really breaking down what you're doing into that specific niche, and AI loves that sort of stuff. So it's really about rethinking what sort of content you're producing and the way you're writing it, the way you're structuring it, um, the way you're sort of presenting yourself as a brand on your own assets, and then gain and earn stuff as well off offline.

SPEAKER_00 39:53

So you would say the strategy has changed for GEO over SEO, or or or is it mainly a great marketing push for for lots of the new agencies that have come on the market?

SPEAKER_01 40:05

I would say SEO is still your base layer, right? You've still because one of the big things with with with iSearch is and studies have shown this. What does what does an ILM do? It it'll it'll look at its training data if it's a simple query, but if you've introduced any complexity or timeliness or comparative stuff to it, it goes off and it does a search, and it goes off and searches Google um or Bing. Um so if you're not on page one or maybe page two, then you're instantly out of that sort of consideration set. It then does a lot of filtering on it doesn't look at web pages first of all, it just scours the first 22 pages of Google and it looks at the headings and the descriptions and it filters relevance and and then drops that down from maybe 20 to maybe four or five, and then it goes off and looks at those websites and then scans the the website content. So your entry level, your entry ticket to to GEO is having good search visibility still. Um then on top of that, there's there's layering in how you write, then write the content, what site kind of content you create, and also thinking about your broader brand, how consistent you're presented across the web, where you're famous, and trying to build your fame and credibility in the things you want to be known for.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

If if a business or an agency watching this was wanting to prepare for the future and just have a better, you know, SEO, GEO presence in general, in like order of highest leverage, like what would you say are the steps that they should be taking in order to actually get a good presence?

SPEAKER_01 41:49

Yeah. I would say start start with your own assets, your website. Start with your website first. How you're presenting yourself? Are you is it vague, generic, sort of where you're passionate about X? Is it business speaky? Is it sort of is it, is it, or is it targeted and tailored? Are you being specific about what you do, who you do it for, why you do it so well, and why you're different? So thinking about your positioning and and really speak to the markets you want to to target, or the sectors, or um, you know, the perfect customer, and tell stories about how you're doing that. Your case studies are really important, and um, we just reworked our case study section for more for AI search, and really that was it wasn't a lot of a change, but really what we were trying to do was rather than just have you because AI looks at a page and it'll it'll look at the kind of top half of the page more than the bottom half because it's got a certain number of tokens it can do to ingest that content. So it's about bringing like the results you achieved right in that H1, right in that header. We we got this much results for this sector uh across this time, and then maybe a summary, and then your detail, so you're kind of breaking it down a bit more, and that's good for users as well, right? You know, you you're not coming to a page where you've just got to traw a big swathe of content, you've broken it out, you've given a summary, you know. So it kind of works for users and for normal search as well. Um, so focus on your website first, um, make it sharp, specific, and and and you know, make sure it's commercially focused, really.

SPEAKER_00 43:27

And you would recommend still, let's say you're an agency siloing individual pages for the individual industries that you work with? Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 43:36

Um, but that that page has to be rich, it has to talk about your knowledge, um, it has to demonstrate some results you've done, you know, it has to say, well, why is this sector different to maybe other sectors? Um, FAQs, you know, pour your knowledge and and expertise into that so it stands out and it's really specific. And yeah, I can see it, it's working for. For that specific thing.

SPEAKER_00 44:01

There's proof, there's evidence. What would you say are some tools that people can use, or or a tool that people can use to better understand how well they're doing from their web perspective at the moment, their website? What do you mean as far as understanding how well they rank and what they could do better on their content?

SPEAKER_01 44:17

For AI search or for AI search. Yeah, I mean there's loads of tools out there. There's um a couple off the top of my head, LLM Refs is a really good one where it's it's quite a simple interface. Um you can put your site in and you can put in kind of things you want to be known for, or you know, top-level services you maybe offer, and then that tool will go off and build like sub-prompts for for that category, and then it'll give you a really nice view of right for that category and set of prompts, these are the brands that are being mentioned. Um, across that prompt set, you're um you know, maybe third most often mentioned, or you're not nowhere to be mentioned, and then what you can also see is the sources that um the LLMs are using to craft that information, so you can see, right, um okay, to be more aware in in um in LLMs, I maybe need to be featured in some of these sources, or create my own source which which sort of talks about this and and adds value to that to that knowledge set. Um, and it breaks it down, so it's a really easy way of sort of getting some sense of where you are and where you might want to be. Um and I think the other thing about AI tracking is it's it's directional, it's different to to SEO because um AI models are probabilistic, so essentially what they're doing is really kind of guessing the next word as it goes along, the most relevant word based on what they've looked at. So if you ask a if I ask an LLM who's the best SEO agency in the UK, um my answer is probably going to be different to your answer when you type it in. Um the SEO works will probably be there both times, but maybe in a different position, different list. Um, and if I then ask the same LLM the same question, I might get a different answer again. So your results are directional, um, you know, because an answer is always different with within LLMs. Um but if you're being features, you can kind of track over time if you're improving or not.

SPEAKER_00 46:22

Are blogs a high-leverage activity for people? And and if so, at what kind of regularity would you recommend putting blog posts out?

SPEAKER_01 46:29

Blogs are, but you need to think about um what you're talking about again, and and this idea of commodity content versus value valuable content. So, you know, gone are the days of doing a blog of you know top ten things to do X, Y, and Z, like generic stuff. Because if if you think an AI answer can answer that, then you're not gonna get any value, you're not gonna get any traction, it's not unique. So your blogs again need to. I would go for quality over quantity and think about where you can demonstrate your value, your knowledge, um, your leadership, your expertise, um, or your you know, like opinions on a on a certain topic. Um so yeah, again, it's not generic, more specific and linked to you as a business and your USPs and knowledge.

SPEAKER_00 47:26

Would you say there's you could put too much content out and and that could negatively impact, or is there no if the quality was good, is there no such thing as too much?

SPEAKER_01 47:35

Yeah, I think I mean quality content takes time. We've seen a lot in the industry, a lot of examples of programmatic SEO where you've got companies bashing out you know hundreds of pages of our either like I don't know, maybe location pages or comparison pages, top 10 pages, that kind of stuff. Um, and you you see it sort of initially go up, and then six months down the line, the visibility just starts tanking because it's Google can see through that stuff um very very easily now. So volume isn't a problem as long as it's good quality. But I'd argue that creating good quality stuff takes time, so you probably can't achieve too much volume unless you've got a huge huge content team. Um so yeah, it's um quality over quantity, but yeah, if you've if you've got the ability to publish at a regular cadence, do so.

SPEAKER_00 48:30

So do you have a reputation and and and and that therefore let's say on l Instagram, for example, and you do too many bad things and you end up getting shadow banned and it's very hard to recover from that. Do companies have to be very careful with that when it comes to like their their domain and is it attached to the domain specifically?

SPEAKER_01 48:50

What in terms of visibility?

SPEAKER_00 48:52

Visibility, you you mentioned, for example, those guys that uh climb and then see a decline and and and and and well that's either because the the strategy is declining or or the page is the website itself is getting downranked. And I just wondered whether there's a reputation attached to a domain.

SPEAKER_01 49:09

There is, yeah, there's a sort of domain authority, there's various measures like that which look at the overall fame of a domain, if you like, and and the reputation. Um but Google's also very good also at um assessing content quality. So even big domain, big brand, uh we've seen examples of programmatic stuff coming out and the the visibility of the domain dropping because all Google's saying is look, this content isn't commodity, it's it's not relevant, we're just not going to show it. So the domain um authority may stay the same, but all that stuff they've created is not visible. Now, with LLMs, is it slightly more of a grey area? LLMs don't necessarily have a measure of a domain's authority, and and you do see in some cases when you look at the sources, like it's gone to a really weird domain with just the the sort of the topic keywords in the domain, and you can see it's quite a new domain and it it it's it's suspicious more suspicious content, but I suspect as LLMs progress they'll they'll sort of weed them out a little bit more. Um and and they do look at content, but they also look at essentially your your fame across the web as well as as to whether you're trusted. Um yeah. And so then do you tie in PR into that at all? Yeah, yeah. So PR is is I I talk about your your existing website, your asset. There's then your own media, so your own socials, that kind of stuff, which are which are good signals. Um, and then yeah, obviously uh PR, um reviews, um even engaging in forums and communities, that kind of stuff where you're adding value are all little signals which show that you exist and you're there as a brand, um, and and and you're real and you're doing stuff, so yeah, uh PR is really important.

SPEAKER_00 51:02

Nice. So you guys went from um well, I'd like to actually instead of going straight into it, I'd like to just uh give you the opportunity to explain for people that don't understand what employee ownership actually is. Can you explain what that is?

SPEAKER_01 51:16

Um so employee ownership is essentially um where everyone in the business um has the that the the business is owned by a trust which is run on behalf of the employees. So, in a sense, every um person in the business has a a stake in the business and can benefit from the business's future growth. Um, so it's a way of um I suppose embedding a strong culture and building on what we have to then say you know this model is very different probably from an old way of working and we believe in you and we want you all to benefit uh in the future.

SPEAKER_00 52:02

And so is there then a specific amount of equity that is shared across employees, or is it the entirety of the business? Like how does that look?

SPEAKER_01 52:11

Yeah, yeah. So to become employee-owned, you have to obviously it's it's like a business deal in any other wing, think in another way, but you're selling it to the trust, so you still have to finance it, etc. Um, but yeah, essentially then that trust exists as a as a and the beneficiaries of that trust are all employees. Um people have to be with us for at least a year to benefit from that trust. Um, and obviously there's a there's a runway to to to pay off the the financing that was created to to do the transaction. But you know, once we get past that, then then the the business can use some of its profits um to then reward the employees equally.

SPEAKER_00 52:54

Do okay, interesting. So it's not it's not based on the specific role there's a it's spread evenly within that pool.

SPEAKER_01 53:01

It's spread evenly, there are things you can do, you know, so um you can evolve and and cut uh add things such as longer longevity or certain rules and change the levels. Um, you know, for day one we've done it completely equal.

SPEAKER_00 53:15

And and so just to make that clear, it's not a it's a certain percentage of the business though rather than the entirety of the company.

SPEAKER_01 53:21

The entirety of the company is employee-owned. Interesting. You can do it uh as a model where part of it is as well. Yeah, you can do that. You know, it's quite it's quite flexible in the way the structures are at work, but yeah, we are 100%.

SPEAKER_00 53:34

So how does that from like a from a founder's perspective, does is there a liquidity event for the founder? Yeah, it's it's just like any other business sale, you know, there's a transaction. So the whole company gets bought by the trust.

SPEAKER_01 53:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:48

Fine.

SPEAKER_01 53:48

And the trust is a third party or is that instructed by the the trust is uh an a it's quite hard to explain, but it's a it's a third party uh entity. But there's no sort of business behind it. It's it's there's there's there's um directors who who sit on the employee ownership board, so we now report into an employee ownership board um where it's that's uh a combination of um previous founder, external um independent, and employee um employees as well. Uh so that's kind of how it's structured now.

SPEAKER_00 54:27

What made uh what what triggered you guys to to to take that action? What made that the right decision?

SPEAKER_01 54:34

Uh well we always had a a vision of you know um eventually selling the business once it got to a certain size, um and we looked at all the options on the table really. Um and this one just it just it there was so many benefits to it. Um you know the one of the main ones was you're kind of still in control of your own destiny and your own culture, um, and everyone can benefit if the business continues to grow and to develop. Um the the rewards for the previous shareholders, you know, are the are the same as any other kind of transaction. So it was kind of like, well, why not do it this way? Because you're still then kind of in control of your destiny, you're not being sold to a bigger group who may do anything. They might asset strip, they might change what you do, they might just you know say, Well, we're shutting the Sheffield office and off your, you know, so you do you don't know when you go across to someone else? There's private equity as well, where you know the the pressures will be probably different, the pressures to to to to grow quickly. Um uh or there's kind of employee ownership which is more equitable, you can control your destiny still, and you can can continue to grow steadily, really, at your own pace.

SPEAKER_00 55:52

Was there like an observable difference between the the team's motivation when that happened?

SPEAKER_01 55:58

Yeah, I think um everyone was really positive about it. Um, you know, that it's quite hard on day one because the really the key benefit is we've changed, but nothing's really changed. Um but you're not going to be taken over by someone you don't know and the risks of all that. So it's really about positioning the future benefits as the company, you know, pays off the financing to support that supported the transaction, and you know, there's um you know, there's that goal of reaching financial freedom dates called uh where then you know it really uh supports the the future uh team in their own sort of goals as well.

SPEAKER_00 56:40

Interesting. How do you think from like a high-level perspective, knowing what's happening with AI at the moment and and having time to think about that, the general agency market is going to evolve in the next five years?

SPEAKER_01 56:58

I think you you have to adopt it, um, or you're not gonna be around really. I think um, you know, the the the genie's out of the bottle, um ignore it at your peril, uh embrace it, learn it, think how it can benefit your agency and bring it in, and and and you know, you kind of go through a journey of dabbling with it, and it's in different pockets, and various some people are using it, some people aren't, and we've kind of been through that. Some people hate it, some people love it, to to then try and bring it in and say, right, well, this is our approach, this is the platform we're gonna use, this is what we're gonna use it for, these are the workflows, um, and trying to get everyone on the same page and and and and how how they can embrace it, and then as as that evolves, people will probably start to think of different ways of using it and bringing it in. Um, so yeah, I think agencies do need to get on board with it. Um, it will probably, I mean, the the challenge with it with it is it it will take out, you know, in the long term, I I really worry about younger people getting into the market because um you know it can support um some of those more junior things, especially. Um so yeah, I think the agency world will look very different probably in five years, and there's probably more broadly fewer people uh i in that model in that world really. Do you think it drives costs down? I wouldn't say necessarily it drives costs down, but it it it means you can probably do more and offer more value and focus on relationships and strategy more. Um so yeah, I wouldn't say it it'll drive costs down.

SPEAKER_00 58:48

How deep have you guys got? Are you using LLMs on a daily basis? Have you built custom systems internally? Um we mentioned off camera about aggregating data. I just wondered how deep you are at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 59:01

Yeah, so yeah, we we've we've adopted Claude as our sort of model of choice. Um we're using uh workflows, we've custom workflows we're built within Claude, which you know it it goes much more beyond than just a prompt, you know, just slapping a prompt in and getting something out. It's it's a workflow with like quality checks in and those uh um research, external research, bringing stuff in, gates to pass through to you know to get through. And then we're also using it um internally in systems. So a quick example um we get the AI looks at um client emails and does a quick roundup each day of urgent issues or feedback or um challenges for the leadership team, and you know, rather than having to dive across all the different emails you might get, you just get this nice summary, um, and that's just in a system which just then automatically emails, um, and we're building it into systems as well. We're developing our own internal project tool, which is historically been done through Google Sheets, and there's about five or ten Google Sheets which run the business that's now been built as a as a as an app, AI's helped them develop that app, but then we're also building AI into it so you can ask it questions and when is this client leaving, or how long's the contract, and how which services have they got with us, and all that kind of stuff. So it's it's it's adding intelligence and just making you find the data quicker and joining stuff up a lot more.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:35

Nice. If you were starting again and you were it was your you know first day as a marketer, like what would you do differently now, understanding the context of the current market?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:46

It's really hard, like the the the thing is where because you've been through it and you've kind of learned as a marketer and you've done the miles, AI is shortcuts cutting stuff, but you've got the background knowledge. Um, so it's it's I still feel like you still need that grounding um and that opportunity, and that's a risk, I think, with AI that that opportunity will go. So, does that mean the future marketer will just be a prompt wizard and not actually understand the underlying stuff? Um, it's sad to think that if if we'll get to that, because you at some point along that journey, it might be 10 years down, your knowledge is gone, your base knowledge is gone, and all you're doing is is is is is working with AI, and that's you know it's quite a sad thing if we get there. So hopefully, you know that it's a hybrid still, and you can still really you know cut your teeth and and learn stuff and learn on the job, and uh but use AI alongside that.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:48

Yeah, it's a tricky one. And I'd often ponder on that, the fact that the more we rely on AI, it's like actually, even on from an observable difference on on writing and and and writing, let's say, social media posts progressively with time. I think even my own ability to copyright is is getting marginally worse, and so I have to then force myself to write things, um, and then and maybe AI is taking some an idea into you know 60% of the way there, and then you write the rest of it. Um but I do wonder what the progression of that is over 10 or 20 years when it's so ingrained, or what that looks like to someone who's new to the world, and and that's all they ever knew. Yeah, it's like where does where does that go?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:37

Where's that go? And there was that really high-level profile. I think it was Develoit who did like um an industry report, and the this company paid tens of thousands for this report, and you know, they got the report, and they realized like a lot of it had just been done by AI, not checked, so a lot of the references you click the links and they were just made up links. And you know, there is still you've got to realise AI isn't isn't everything, it doesn't know anything, it gets stuff wrong. And if like you say, this scenario of 10-20 years down the line where people are just relying on AI and and trusting it, um, you know, you've got to get some high profile cock-ups, I would say.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:15

So if someone was starting and and they were, I say, looking to start an agency, like what advice would you give to that person to make sure they don't fall under the trap of being generic?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:26

Um I I would say if you're starting an agency, drill down on a specific sector, specific market, and probably just one service and build up your expertise there because that's easier to find fame in one specific area and niche and build your story from there and then grow from there. Um, so you know, focus, hyper focus on on something, do it really well and and build it from there.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:55

Nice. I've got some quick fire questions for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:00

Um, one tool that you couldn't run the SEO works without.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:03

One tool, wow. Well, it's it's Google Sheets at the moment, um, and it probably will be uh for a while. Um, but obviously we're building this new system which hopefully will take over the world and take over that, uh, and also our financial system free agent, which has all the the boring financial figures on there.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:22

One thing that you wish you learned earlier in your career?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:24

One thing I wish I learned earlier, that's a tricky one. Uh I suppose uh realizing that um you can't control everything, um, and the best thing to do is to trust people and they might do stuff different to how you might do it, but as long as the outcome's there, it doesn't matter. You know, people have to you have to enable people and empower them to do their own thing. Best book that you've ever read. Um one that really stands out, which is Man's Search for Meaning by Victor Frankel, um, which is he was um uh uh a war prisoner in the Holocaust. Um so for for if you want to get perspective, that read that book because you know they went through the most horrific stuff. Um so you kind of I always think you know, no matter where you're on in in life, there's someone doing better off than you and someone doing worse off than you. Um and you know, if if you if you read that book, you you really get a sense of, you know, I might have had a bad day, but you know, there's always people out there who've had a worse day. And what he found was the people who survived through that horrendous, you know, the camps and all that kind of stuff, walking through miles barefoot in snow and um you know not eating for days and and being submet subjected to horrendous violence. Some people just dropped off a cliff and fade and and and lost it. But the people who survived and got through that were people who found a purpose and had a purpose. Um, and his purpose became he became a medic in the camp and he was sort of helping people get right. So it also teaches you to think about right, well, what's you know, what purposes do I have in life, and what you know, how how is that purpose going to drive me? Uh so it gives you perspective and it gives you a sense of you know that sense of purpose. Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:17

One quote or motto that you live by?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:20

Um I I always return to Rudyard Kiplin's If, which is a poem, um and it covers a lot of things, um but it sort of it touches one bit which is um uh it talks about disaster and failure. Um, if you know if you can meet with triumph and disaster and treat those two impostors just the same. And for that, for that me, it's about saying, right, in in in work, in life as well, you're gonna have ups and downs, you're gonna have really good days, and you're gonna have terrible days, you might have terrible weeks, you know, especially running a business. Um, and it's trying to treat those with a level of balance, don't get too high with the wins, yes, celebrate them and try not to get too low with the losses. You know, try and keep a balance because if you're thinking clearly, you can get through anything really if you set a plan. Finally, one thing that every agency owner should stop doing immediately. I suppose, well, s start looking at your time and and where you're most effective and try to chuck away the things which aren't adding as much value. So tr try and be protective over your time and say no to stuff where where you don't need to be involved. Ben, thanks so much. All right, thanks for having us.